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this is an interview with jonathan pajot

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who invited me into his home

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though i released it about two years ago

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was conducted two years ago

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but i'm embarrassed about it and ashamed

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even

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because i was younger and nervously

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interrupting in an attempt to try and

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impress

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jonathan which is a quality or

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characteristic that was

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there when i interviewed janice fiamengo

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as well in the janusz mango interview

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which is also on this channel

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it's not surprising because it was

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recorded day afterward however many of

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you enjoyed it at the time it had a 98.5

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like ratio and i'm reposting it because

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of that

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i have a larger audience now and perhaps

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many more people now will benefit from

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jonathan's words

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jonathan pejo is wonderful in the

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interview there are what are called math

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prodigies

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generally are people who at a young age

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can take numbers

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large numbers sum them multiply them

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divide them in their head rapidly

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jonathan is like that with symbolism

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he's able to watch a movie and almost

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instantaneously deconstruct it his

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channel the symbolic world will have you

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question

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the distinction between the literal and

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the metaphoric which

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actually means it helps you or imposes

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a questioning of reality upon you this

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can be either for good or for ill

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i think it's for good and if you make an

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assessment based on the comments and the

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people he's influenced

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you would say it's for good as well he's

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a talented figure and for those of you

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who know ramanajan

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he's ramanujan the ramanujan of the

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symbolism world

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he came pretty much from nowhere with no

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formal training

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and has a pretty natural ability in this

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domain as an aside this was for a

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documentary called better left unsaid

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which i directed

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and is actually released now so you can

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go to betterleftonsaidfilm.com

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to see the version with jonathan pajot

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in it you can also watch it on itunes

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and so on but

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the director's version the one that has

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jonathan in it the one that's more

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sesquipedalian and even mystical that

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one is on

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betterleftonsetfilm.com thank you and if

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you enjoy seeing conversations like this

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then please do consider

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going to patreon.com and supporting you

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can make a custom pledge

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literally each dollar there's that word

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literally

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financially as well as

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motivationally it may even help

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metaphorically please enjoy the

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interview despite my

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asinine and unpolished likely still

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unpolished interview skills

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thank you i'm here with the preeminent

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the exigent the pivotal

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paramount paramount jonathan pageau

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artist

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carver public speaker symbolic

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translator i guess yeah you could say

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that something like that

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why don't you just tell me about what

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you do tell

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everybody about what you do but tell me

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all right well i

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um i'm mostly an artist i make religious

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art liturgical art you could call it

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in the orthodox tradition but in general

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in let's say the kind of christian

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medieval tradition

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and that has led me to look into

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symbolism

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in the christian tradition but also in

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general looking at other

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religions other traditions but through

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other types of storytelling as well

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fairy tales

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mythology and now modern storytelling

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such as movies and novels and everything

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and so looking into symbolic structures

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relating to

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my art has led me to becoming

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becoming interested in symbolism in

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general

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and so in my daily practice by making

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making icons

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i engage in that world let's say that

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symbolic world through

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my art making and then the way that that

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art integrates into the life of a church

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in the life of a community is also part

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of that but then

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now for the past i guess two years now

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i've been doing a lot more of public

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speaking

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talking about symbolism in general how

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it relates to our life how it

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its structures are the um inform

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our perception of reality and are

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interacting with reality so that's what

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i've been doing

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through youtube but also doing a lot of

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public speaking all over north america

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for the past two years now you said that

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you got started because you're an artist

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and so you started

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studying the symbolic representations

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and what they mean but

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give me a timeline of your life so you

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were four years old and you started this

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and then you were well i know i

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when i was young i always kind of knew i

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was going to be an artist

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from when i was pretty young but then i

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was also

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my parents were a christian i was a

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christian i was part of a evangelical

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church and then when i studied uh in

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college when i studied at concord

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university painting and drawing i really

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hit a wall it was just contemporary art

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is

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it's doing you know it's like a comment

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upon a comment upon a comment isn't it

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all right is that another word for

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modern art or is that different

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well contemporary art you would say

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you could you could use modern for the

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whole period but usually we use the word

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modern for

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the early 20th century up to about world

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war ii

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talk about moving towards what we could

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call post-modern art or contemporary

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art which is even more let's say removed

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from um more a comment like i said a

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comment upon a comment it becomes about

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art itself

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it becomes a kind of circular uh

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playing with elements uh so the art

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piece of art that was just a urinal

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yes well that was modern well that was

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modern but duchamp who made that

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urinal is seen as a one of the seminal

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figures in

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bringing about what would be today

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installation art and

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contemporary art so there are certain

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figures in modernism which

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lead into what we now consider people

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like jeff koons or

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andy warhol you know they they take

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their

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people like marcel duchamp's beginning

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of the century so it was already

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already there at the beginning of the

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century let's say everything was kind of

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packaged up and then it

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unfurled itself into now the kind of

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on one hand anything goes but on the

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other hand

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everything has to be packaged in a a

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kind of

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post-cynical uh you know ironic

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double irony triple irony so that's

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really what it is so it was very

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difficult for me

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coming in as someone who wanted to

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connect with reality

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you know who who as a person of faith i

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wanted to make things which

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which weren't just this flighty irony

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you know of

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of of references but wanted to connect

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with something real

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and so i was just hitting a wall i just

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couldn't couldn't make it happen

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i got interested in some contemporary

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artists for example there's a german

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artist

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his name is anselm kiefer and he was the

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closest to what i was hoping to do he

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was he was trying to bring back

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mythological thinking within the artwork

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but his work was still it's still

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problematic because it's still in

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galleries it's still prestige objects

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objects which have no function in the

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world right we're actually

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so used to thinking that art doesn't

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have a function in the world

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that we forget that traditional arts in

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in

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all cultures actually have uh functions

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within the community they they integrate

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themselves within a world view within a

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a community living um and so and is that

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conscious

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so that they're integrating one another

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or does that happen

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because they're communally putting

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together a piece of art and then they

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all

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respect it and revere it and it has

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their values embedded in it somehow

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well the traditional way of seeing art

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is very different from the contemporary

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way of seeing art

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the way that traditional vision pretty

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much i would say worldwide

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you see art as a skill and so the notion

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of art

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is we still use that word today when we

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say the art of cheese making

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or the art of this the art of that and

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so that that's really the traditional

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way of understanding the word art the

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word art actually means in latin

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comes from the notion of fitting things

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together so the capacity to fit things

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together properly that's what art is

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and so in a traditional vision of art we

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we say things like uh the art remains

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with the artist

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right the art is the skill of making

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things and so the

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the object that is made has to serve a

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purpose there's no such thing

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in a traditional vision as making art

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you don't make art you use art to make

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things and so the art is the tool art is

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the tool art is the skill art is the

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the capacity that you have mastered to

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make an object

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and so then that object needs to have a

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function in the world it needs to be

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integrated within a purpose

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and that's probably one of the hardest

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things for people to understand

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is that art is not a value in itself

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and once you understand that at least

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when i understood that

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it actually liberated my me from a lot

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of problems because

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one of the problems we're always asking

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is is this art

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is this art you know you you they they

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come up with some crazy

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jeff coons you know blown up uh snoopy

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and then the question is is that art

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and the answer to me now has become i

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don't care

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that's that doesn't matter that's not

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the point the whether it's art or not

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that's not that's not a question

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the question is does it does it matter

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does it have meaning

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does it have a function is it is it

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integratable into society like does it

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have

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a capacity to integrate into the world

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um

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and so when i all of this was kind of

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playing around in my head

286
00:09:16,710 --> 00:09:15,440
while i was studying fine art and it was

287
00:09:18,870 --> 00:09:16,720
so funny because

288
00:09:20,550 --> 00:09:18,880
it was so taking that that became the

289
00:09:23,829 --> 00:09:20,560
subject of my art and so

290
00:09:27,110 --> 00:09:23,839
the subject of my art in college was

291
00:09:27,910 --> 00:09:27,120
how can i make art in this post-modern

292
00:09:30,070 --> 00:09:27,920
world which

293
00:09:31,350 --> 00:09:30,080
is not just ironic which is actually

294
00:09:33,750 --> 00:09:31,360
connected to

295
00:09:35,509 --> 00:09:33,760
a community to a to to let's say a

296
00:09:37,670 --> 00:09:35,519
coherent world view

297
00:09:38,949 --> 00:09:37,680
but then it was it was still being very

298
00:09:41,269 --> 00:09:38,959
removed it was like

299
00:09:42,790 --> 00:09:41,279
i'm not doing it i'm asking myself

300
00:09:46,470 --> 00:09:42,800
whether i can do it

301
00:09:49,670 --> 00:09:46,480
and it was so funny because the last

302
00:09:52,150 --> 00:09:49,680
my last uh day in school when my

303
00:09:54,310 --> 00:09:52,160
supervisor was giving me my final grade

304
00:09:55,269 --> 00:09:54,320
she said uh

305
00:09:56,790 --> 00:09:55,279
it was so funny because i actually

306
00:09:58,870 --> 00:09:56,800
finished first in my program like i was

307
00:10:01,030 --> 00:09:58,880
really diligent i was working hard but

308
00:10:02,710 --> 00:10:01,040
she knew that it just wasn't it wasn't

309
00:10:03,750 --> 00:10:02,720
working and she uh

310
00:10:05,430 --> 00:10:03,760
she just looked at me and said don't

311
00:10:07,030 --> 00:10:05,440
worry you're getting all a's it's okay

312
00:10:09,590 --> 00:10:07,040
what did she know was not working

313
00:10:10,710 --> 00:10:09,600
well she understood that if what i was

314
00:10:13,269 --> 00:10:10,720
trying to do

315
00:10:14,069 --> 00:10:13,279
which is for example to be a christian

316
00:10:17,190 --> 00:10:14,079
person

317
00:10:20,310 --> 00:10:17,200
who was making art in a manner which was

318
00:10:22,550 --> 00:10:20,320
authentic uh and but was still

319
00:10:24,630 --> 00:10:22,560
somehow part of the contemporary art

320
00:10:27,190 --> 00:10:24,640
world which is full of irony and full of

321
00:10:27,990 --> 00:10:27,200
double uh let's say double removal and

322
00:10:31,269 --> 00:10:28,000
constant

323
00:10:32,630 --> 00:10:31,279
you know a kind of flighty removed

324
00:10:35,110 --> 00:10:32,640
version of reality

325
00:10:35,750 --> 00:10:35,120
she just knew that it it wasn't wasn't

326
00:10:37,509 --> 00:10:35,760
happening

327
00:10:39,509 --> 00:10:37,519
and so she just she just told me on the

328
00:10:40,069 --> 00:10:39,519
very last day of my of my degree she

329
00:10:41,750 --> 00:10:40,079
said

330
00:10:43,590 --> 00:10:41,760
what are you doing here like you don't

331
00:10:44,949 --> 00:10:43,600
you don't belong here you should go to

332
00:10:47,110 --> 00:10:44,959
seminary or something

333
00:10:49,030 --> 00:10:47,120
you know because you're too traditional

334
00:10:51,509 --> 00:10:49,040
no because she could see that

335
00:10:52,790 --> 00:10:51,519
the questions i was asking were not they

336
00:10:54,870 --> 00:10:52,800
just it just wasn't

337
00:10:56,710 --> 00:10:54,880
fitting with the with the contemporary

338
00:10:58,710 --> 00:10:56,720
art world it just didn't have its place

339
00:11:00,150 --> 00:10:58,720
the questions such as such as the

340
00:11:01,430 --> 00:11:00,160
utility of asking whether or not a piece

341
00:11:03,590 --> 00:11:01,440
of art is a piece of art

342
00:11:04,470 --> 00:11:03,600
no no not that that that is something

343
00:11:06,870 --> 00:11:04,480
that everybody is

344
00:11:07,829 --> 00:11:06,880
always constantly asking the the problem

345
00:11:11,110 --> 00:11:07,839
was mostly

346
00:11:11,990 --> 00:11:11,120
to say how can i let's say as part of a

347
00:11:13,350 --> 00:11:12,000
community

348
00:11:15,990 --> 00:11:13,360
let's say a part of a christian

349
00:11:19,990 --> 00:11:16,000
community how can i make

350
00:11:22,069 --> 00:11:20,000
objects which fit into my life and into

351
00:11:25,430 --> 00:11:22,079
my world and into my community

352
00:11:27,430 --> 00:11:25,440
in a in an integrated way you know like

353
00:11:29,269 --> 00:11:27,440
i mean it really is a difference between

354
00:11:30,870 --> 00:11:29,279
i didn't know yet because i hadn't

355
00:11:32,790 --> 00:11:30,880
discovered traditional art it really is

356
00:11:35,590 --> 00:11:32,800
the difference between let's say

357
00:11:35,990 --> 00:11:35,600
i make you're a musician and you come to

358
00:11:37,670 --> 00:11:36,000
me

359
00:11:39,030 --> 00:11:37,680
and you say here's my here's what i'm

360
00:11:42,389 --> 00:11:39,040
trying to play this is what i'm doing

361
00:11:45,430 --> 00:11:42,399
then i i uh i design a guitar for

362
00:11:45,910 --> 00:11:45,440
your particular needs that's traditional

363
00:11:48,069 --> 00:11:45,920
art

364
00:11:49,670 --> 00:11:48,079
right um but and the post modern version

365
00:11:51,350 --> 00:11:49,680
of that would be the postmodern version

366
00:11:52,870 --> 00:11:51,360
of that would be i will make

367
00:11:55,110 --> 00:11:52,880
a guitar that will question what a

368
00:11:56,069 --> 00:11:55,120
guitar is right i will make a guitar

369
00:11:58,790 --> 00:11:56,079
that cannot cannot

370
00:12:00,790 --> 00:11:58,800
be played but will will ironically

371
00:12:02,870 --> 00:12:00,800
question the whole tradition of what

372
00:12:04,470 --> 00:12:02,880
of what guitars have been and what music

373
00:12:05,750 --> 00:12:04,480
and and then now today it's even worse

374
00:12:08,150 --> 00:12:05,760
because now it's going to show

375
00:12:09,110 --> 00:12:08,160
how the the guitar itself as an object

376
00:12:12,150 --> 00:12:09,120
who's created

377
00:12:12,790 --> 00:12:12,160
by by hierarchies of uh of historical

378
00:12:16,069 --> 00:12:12,800
hierarchies

379
00:12:16,389 --> 00:12:16,079
how does it how is it a uh uh an object

380
00:12:19,509 --> 00:12:16,399
which

381
00:12:20,949 --> 00:12:19,519
hierarchy you know um

382
00:12:22,550 --> 00:12:20,959
that's the that's the difficulty of post

383
00:12:23,269 --> 00:12:22,560
modernism so that so i would that's not

384
00:12:25,269 --> 00:12:23,279
what i was

385
00:12:26,790 --> 00:12:25,279
wanting to do you know that that's not

386
00:12:27,590 --> 00:12:26,800
that's not what i was trying to do i was

387
00:12:29,910 --> 00:12:27,600
trying to

388
00:12:30,949 --> 00:12:29,920
create a lang visual language which was

389
00:12:33,430 --> 00:12:30,959
which would

390
00:12:35,110 --> 00:12:33,440
integrate with my own experience with my

391
00:12:36,629 --> 00:12:35,120
own faith with my own

392
00:12:38,389 --> 00:12:36,639
participation in a community in the

393
00:12:39,829 --> 00:12:38,399
church and all that okay let's get back

394
00:12:41,190 --> 00:12:39,839
we're going to get back to this but

395
00:12:42,870 --> 00:12:41,200
let's get back to

396
00:12:44,230 --> 00:12:42,880
art as a tool yeah so you're saying art

397
00:12:45,910 --> 00:12:44,240
is a tool so this snoopy

398
00:12:48,550 --> 00:12:45,920
example i don't know the reference i

399
00:12:49,670 --> 00:12:48,560
don't know jeff coons is big snoopy yeah

400
00:12:51,350 --> 00:12:49,680
well i don't think he made a big sober

401
00:12:52,550 --> 00:12:51,360
he made he makes like for example he did

402
00:12:54,790 --> 00:12:52,560
uh he did a big

403
00:12:55,910 --> 00:12:54,800
a big sculpture which is a a pile of

404
00:12:57,829 --> 00:12:55,920
play-doh

405
00:12:59,509 --> 00:12:57,839
so likely imagine like a lot a small

406
00:13:00,550 --> 00:12:59,519
child has taken bits of play-doh and you

407
00:13:02,389 --> 00:13:00,560
just kind of jump

408
00:13:04,470 --> 00:13:02,399
bundle up in a thing he made a giant

409
00:13:08,069 --> 00:13:04,480
bronze uh sculpture of uh

410
00:13:09,829 --> 00:13:08,079
of of a pile of play-doh okay example

411
00:13:11,509 --> 00:13:09,839
that's jeff koons okay so it makes

412
00:13:12,150 --> 00:13:11,519
things like that so this amalgamation of

413
00:13:13,910 --> 00:13:12,160
plato

414
00:13:15,509 --> 00:13:13,920
is it art and you're quite your answer

415
00:13:17,190 --> 00:13:15,519
is it doesn't matter

416
00:13:19,190 --> 00:13:17,200
what matters more as doesn't matter and

417
00:13:21,190 --> 00:13:19,200
doesn't provide meaning to a certain

418
00:13:22,550 --> 00:13:21,200
set of people and does it integrate that

419
00:13:24,470 --> 00:13:22,560
people with the community

420
00:13:26,629 --> 00:13:24,480
i don't know if i'm yeah it's something

421
00:13:28,550 --> 00:13:26,639
like that how does it integrate into

422
00:13:29,750 --> 00:13:28,560
the world how does it participate in the

423
00:13:31,829 --> 00:13:29,760
world how does it

424
00:13:32,870 --> 00:13:31,839
build instead of and that i think that

425
00:13:34,949 --> 00:13:32,880
then if it does

426
00:13:37,110 --> 00:13:34,959
then it's art or no it's not working

427
00:13:39,990 --> 00:13:37,120
forget about the question of whether

428
00:13:41,829 --> 00:13:40,000
the art itself is the skill right it's

429
00:13:43,030 --> 00:13:41,839
the capacity to do that

430
00:13:44,550 --> 00:13:43,040
that's what that's that's the

431
00:13:45,910 --> 00:13:44,560
traditional worldview so all right so

432
00:13:46,790 --> 00:13:45,920
let's take another example let's say

433
00:13:48,310 --> 00:13:46,800
someone's making

434
00:13:49,829 --> 00:13:48,320
someone's a great pizza maker yeah and

435
00:13:51,350 --> 00:13:49,839
then they make something let's

436
00:13:52,710 --> 00:13:51,360
say they made it out of pizza but

437
00:13:54,069 --> 00:13:52,720
they're good pizza makers so then the

438
00:13:54,470 --> 00:13:54,079
question is is that pizza and you would

439
00:13:56,230 --> 00:13:54,480
say

440
00:13:57,910 --> 00:13:56,240
well did they use the skill of pizza

441
00:13:59,350 --> 00:13:57,920
making on that object the question would

442
00:14:00,629 --> 00:13:59,360
be is it good

443
00:14:02,710 --> 00:14:00,639
because that's what it pizza's supposed

444
00:14:03,269 --> 00:14:02,720
to do so can you eat it yes and does it

445
00:14:05,030 --> 00:14:03,279
taste good

446
00:14:06,310 --> 00:14:05,040
if you want to know if whether or not

447
00:14:08,550 --> 00:14:06,320
that that

448
00:14:10,150 --> 00:14:08,560
that pizza maker is a good artist is

449
00:14:11,350 --> 00:14:10,160
whether or not the pizza does what the

450
00:14:12,150 --> 00:14:11,360
pizza is supposed to do which just

451
00:14:13,990 --> 00:14:12,160
tastes good

452
00:14:15,509 --> 00:14:14,000
you know whatever it is it could it

453
00:14:17,269 --> 00:14:15,519
could be to be healthy too it depends on

454
00:14:18,870 --> 00:14:17,279
what the the pizza maker wants to

455
00:14:20,069 --> 00:14:18,880
accomplish by making his pizza

456
00:14:21,269 --> 00:14:20,079
you know it's the same thing with

457
00:14:22,310 --> 00:14:21,279
someone like i said somebody would make

458
00:14:24,069 --> 00:14:22,320
a musical instrument

459
00:14:25,430 --> 00:14:24,079
the question if you ask whether or not

460
00:14:27,990 --> 00:14:25,440
that that

461
00:14:28,949 --> 00:14:28,000
uh you know the the musical instrument

462
00:14:31,509 --> 00:14:28,959
maker

463
00:14:33,509 --> 00:14:31,519
is a good artist is whether or not that

464
00:14:35,750 --> 00:14:33,519
instrument does what it's supposed to do

465
00:14:37,110 --> 00:14:35,760
um and that's it's very difficult for

466
00:14:39,509 --> 00:14:37,120
people to think that way now

467
00:14:41,110 --> 00:14:39,519
you know because even in the past music

468
00:14:43,269 --> 00:14:41,120
was composed for reasons

469
00:14:45,350 --> 00:14:43,279
we don't people didn't just compose

470
00:14:48,550 --> 00:14:45,360
music just to compose music

471
00:14:51,750 --> 00:14:48,560
they would compose music for a requiem

472
00:14:54,629 --> 00:14:51,760
music for a mass music for a

473
00:14:56,310 --> 00:14:54,639
feast music to celebrate uh someone's

474
00:14:59,829 --> 00:14:56,320
birthday to celebrate the king

475
00:15:02,710 --> 00:14:59,839
to to uh the music was written

476
00:15:03,350 --> 00:15:02,720
to integrate into society it would you

477
00:15:05,030 --> 00:15:03,360
wouldn't just

478
00:15:06,550 --> 00:15:05,040
write unless you were making studies or

479
00:15:07,670 --> 00:15:06,560
maybe you were studying to practice or

480
00:15:10,949 --> 00:15:07,680
you're doing things like that

481
00:15:13,829 --> 00:15:10,959
but your ultimate purpose was to write a

482
00:15:15,269 --> 00:15:13,839
a uh a piece of music which would which

483
00:15:17,750 --> 00:15:15,279
would

484
00:15:19,430 --> 00:15:17,760
function you know even storytelling

485
00:15:19,750 --> 00:15:19,440
that's been a while since we've had that

486
00:15:22,069 --> 00:15:19,760
but

487
00:15:23,750 --> 00:15:22,079
even storytelling in a traditional sense

488
00:15:24,230 --> 00:15:23,760
like if you think of the great epics if

489
00:15:27,030 --> 00:15:24,240
you think of

490
00:15:27,509 --> 00:15:27,040
of the iliad or the the odyssey those

491
00:15:29,590 --> 00:15:27,519
were

492
00:15:30,949 --> 00:15:29,600
community building stories those stories

493
00:15:33,749 --> 00:15:30,959
were meant to

494
00:15:34,230 --> 00:15:33,759
create to even create what the greeks

495
00:15:35,670 --> 00:15:34,240
were

496
00:15:37,670 --> 00:15:35,680
so how do you judge a piece of art where

497
00:15:40,389 --> 00:15:37,680
the artist themselves doesn't know what

498
00:15:41,910 --> 00:15:40,399
the purpose of the piece of art was

499
00:15:43,749 --> 00:15:41,920
what do you mean how do you like they

500
00:15:44,949 --> 00:15:43,759
it's because you're saying you can posit

501
00:15:46,550 --> 00:15:44,959
a goal and then

502
00:15:48,310 --> 00:15:46,560
whether or not you achieve that goal

503
00:15:50,870 --> 00:15:48,320
through the art that's

504
00:15:51,590 --> 00:15:50,880
a measure of the arts it's not it's not

505
00:15:53,189 --> 00:15:51,600
necessarily what

506
00:15:54,629 --> 00:15:53,199
worth you could you could go further

507
00:15:55,590 --> 00:15:54,639
than think that it's just based on the

508
00:15:57,990 --> 00:15:55,600
individual's

509
00:15:59,269 --> 00:15:58,000
purpose it's it's a it's a broader thing

510
00:16:01,749 --> 00:15:59,279
than that it's like

511
00:16:02,790 --> 00:16:01,759
if you let's say a pizza maker decided

512
00:16:04,069 --> 00:16:02,800
you wanted to make a pizza in the table

513
00:16:05,749 --> 00:16:04,079
by the way all pizza makers i'm sure

514
00:16:08,550 --> 00:16:05,759
there's a technical term for you

515
00:16:11,110 --> 00:16:08,560
and i apologize i know you're just in

516
00:16:12,949 --> 00:16:11,120
you're greeting yourself

517
00:16:15,269 --> 00:16:12,959
so let's say a pizza maker decided he

518
00:16:18,310 --> 00:16:15,279
wanted to make a pizza that tastes bad

519
00:16:21,269 --> 00:16:18,320
you know he could do that but it would

520
00:16:22,389 --> 00:16:21,279
probably not be considered great pizza

521
00:16:23,189 --> 00:16:22,399
and that guy would probably not be

522
00:16:24,949 --> 00:16:23,199
considered

523
00:16:26,629 --> 00:16:24,959
a good pizza artist okay but in there in

524
00:16:28,150 --> 00:16:26,639
that example it's obvious what the

525
00:16:30,150 --> 00:16:28,160
intention of the pizza is it's to be

526
00:16:31,509 --> 00:16:30,160
eaten but say someone like picasso and

527
00:16:32,150 --> 00:16:31,519
he just goes in a room he doesn't know

528
00:16:33,829 --> 00:16:32,160
what he's doing

529
00:16:35,670 --> 00:16:33,839
he organizes his room so now he's like

530
00:16:37,189 --> 00:16:35,680
maybe i'm an interior decorator oh i

531
00:16:38,629 --> 00:16:37,199
just discovered cubism somehow in his

532
00:16:40,550 --> 00:16:38,639
room but he doesn't know what it's for

533
00:16:42,069 --> 00:16:40,560
yeah because he doesn't know what it's

534
00:16:43,110 --> 00:16:42,079
for we also don't know what it's for

535
00:16:45,189 --> 00:16:43,120
because the artist was just

536
00:16:46,389 --> 00:16:45,199
exploring and they created something

537
00:16:48,870 --> 00:16:46,399
yeah so

538
00:16:50,870 --> 00:16:48,880
can we judge it then because we don't

539
00:16:55,749 --> 00:16:50,880
know its purpose well i think that

540
00:16:58,790 --> 00:16:55,759
picasso and modern art in general has a

541
00:17:00,710 --> 00:16:58,800
has a destabilizing effect on society

542
00:17:02,310 --> 00:17:00,720
and i think they meant for it to be that

543
00:17:02,790 --> 00:17:02,320
so in a way maybe they did what they did

544
00:17:04,949 --> 00:17:02,800
was right

545
00:17:07,350 --> 00:17:04,959
i think that most modern art and

546
00:17:09,189 --> 00:17:07,360
contemporary art

547
00:17:11,270 --> 00:17:09,199
believes in a revolutionary vision of

548
00:17:13,590 --> 00:17:11,280
reality that the purpose

549
00:17:15,110 --> 00:17:13,600
that our purpose is to is to to bring

550
00:17:17,750 --> 00:17:15,120
about revolutions to

551
00:17:18,470 --> 00:17:17,760
to destroy the the the status quo to

552
00:17:20,470 --> 00:17:18,480
destroy

553
00:17:22,630 --> 00:17:20,480
the existing order and and i think that

554
00:17:24,069 --> 00:17:22,640
picasso was a communist i mean he was a

555
00:17:24,710 --> 00:17:24,079
communist pretty much his whole life

556
00:17:28,470 --> 00:17:24,720
even

557
00:17:31,350 --> 00:17:28,480
to be so and uh

558
00:17:33,110 --> 00:17:31,360
a lot of the a lot of the modern artists

559
00:17:35,029 --> 00:17:33,120
were either communists or fascists

560
00:17:36,470 --> 00:17:35,039
you know these the futurists were

561
00:17:37,190 --> 00:17:36,480
straight on fascists you know they

562
00:17:39,430 --> 00:17:37,200
wanted

563
00:17:40,710 --> 00:17:39,440
to burn the old system down and set up a

564
00:17:42,870 --> 00:17:40,720
totalitarian

565
00:17:44,470 --> 00:17:42,880
uh you know system of art too a

566
00:17:46,710 --> 00:17:44,480
totalitarian system of art we have

567
00:17:47,669 --> 00:17:46,720
artists who were totalitarian in their

568
00:17:49,270 --> 00:17:47,679
artistic vision

569
00:17:51,029 --> 00:17:49,280
we don't we don't tend to want to see

570
00:17:54,310 --> 00:17:51,039
them that way now for some reason

571
00:17:55,830 --> 00:17:54,320
but uh but the uh a lot of the the the

572
00:17:57,190 --> 00:17:55,840
abstract artists were

573
00:17:59,990 --> 00:17:57,200
especially the russian abstract artists

574
00:18:02,310 --> 00:18:00,000
had a totalitarian vision of reality

575
00:18:03,750 --> 00:18:02,320
and a lot of modern designers were very

576
00:18:06,470 --> 00:18:03,760
totalitarian you know

577
00:18:07,190 --> 00:18:06,480
some some modern architects would say

578
00:18:08,310 --> 00:18:07,200
things like

579
00:18:10,950 --> 00:18:08,320
you know i wish i could design the

580
00:18:13,110 --> 00:18:10,960
people in my house or i wish i could

581
00:18:14,870 --> 00:18:13,120
nail the chairs to the floor

582
00:18:16,390 --> 00:18:14,880
so that i could control sounds like

583
00:18:19,270 --> 00:18:16,400
excess order exactly

584
00:18:20,310 --> 00:18:19,280
everything the way the way it is okay um

585
00:18:22,950 --> 00:18:20,320
and so you have these

586
00:18:24,310 --> 00:18:22,960
these you have like the this you have

587
00:18:25,750 --> 00:18:24,320
this these two tendencies let's say

588
00:18:27,350 --> 00:18:25,760
modern art you have both you have

589
00:18:29,190 --> 00:18:27,360
a kind of destructive tendency and a

590
00:18:30,549 --> 00:18:29,200
totalitarian tendency which is part of

591
00:18:32,310 --> 00:18:30,559
the modern world so you see it as

592
00:18:33,990 --> 00:18:32,320
off-balance because yeah in peter's

593
00:18:35,110 --> 00:18:34,000
the pedersonian point of view which is

594
00:18:36,789 --> 00:18:35,120
also the dallas point of view there's

595
00:18:37,909 --> 00:18:36,799
order chaos and you see it as being on

596
00:18:39,430 --> 00:18:37,919
the extremes and that they're not

597
00:18:41,750 --> 00:18:39,440
mediating between the two

598
00:18:42,549 --> 00:18:41,760
properly yeah i agree i think the whole

599
00:18:44,950 --> 00:18:42,559
modern world

600
00:18:45,669 --> 00:18:44,960
that's what it is it's just a swing it's

601
00:18:48,230 --> 00:18:45,679
just this

602
00:18:49,750 --> 00:18:48,240
this uh pendulum swing between two two

603
00:18:50,870 --> 00:18:49,760
excesses and you can see it in modern

604
00:18:52,150 --> 00:18:50,880
art you can see it as well

605
00:18:53,830 --> 00:18:52,160
and they become confused and they kind

606
00:18:55,510 --> 00:18:53,840
of fight and then they they break each

607
00:18:57,590 --> 00:18:55,520
other apart

608
00:18:59,990 --> 00:18:57,600
but but it's a it is a fascinating thing

609
00:19:00,870 --> 00:19:00,000
to to see now we kind of just gloss over

610
00:19:02,789 --> 00:19:00,880
a lot of it

611
00:19:04,070 --> 00:19:02,799
but if you look at the way for example

612
00:19:09,029 --> 00:19:04,080
that even

613
00:19:11,029 --> 00:19:09,039
post um abstract expressionist art

614
00:19:12,310 --> 00:19:11,039
uh let's say manifested itself it

615
00:19:13,909 --> 00:19:12,320
started with this

616
00:19:15,750 --> 00:19:13,919
freeing up you know jackson pollock

617
00:19:17,830 --> 00:19:15,760
throwing paint on the ground and

618
00:19:19,750 --> 00:19:17,840
and kind of this chaotic energy and

619
00:19:22,549 --> 00:19:19,760
everything and then it ended

620
00:19:23,350 --> 00:19:22,559
with color field painting where it was

621
00:19:26,070 --> 00:19:23,360
like just

622
00:19:27,350 --> 00:19:26,080
strips of one color and you couldn't do

623
00:19:29,190 --> 00:19:27,360
anything else like it was

624
00:19:31,190 --> 00:19:29,200
it was uh completely everything was

625
00:19:33,430 --> 00:19:31,200
controlled in these extremely

626
00:19:34,710 --> 00:19:33,440
tight tight boxes of what you could do

627
00:19:36,230 --> 00:19:34,720
and i saw this painting that was just

628
00:19:38,390 --> 00:19:36,240
white with one speck of red do you know

629
00:19:40,870 --> 00:19:38,400
this painting i forget it's a

630
00:19:41,830 --> 00:19:40,880
large it's a very famous painting yeah i

631
00:19:42,950 --> 00:19:41,840
don't know which i don't know which

632
00:19:45,510 --> 00:19:42,960
painting you're for that

633
00:19:46,789 --> 00:19:45,520
okay just imagine a blanket yes i can

634
00:19:48,390 --> 00:19:46,799
imagine that and then there's some

635
00:19:49,830 --> 00:19:48,400
splotch of red in the corner yeah and it

636
00:19:52,150 --> 00:19:49,840
sold for millions of dollars

637
00:19:53,350 --> 00:19:52,160
is that contemporary yeah well that's it

638
00:19:54,950 --> 00:19:53,360
depends it could be

639
00:19:56,310 --> 00:19:54,960
uh it would probably be a moderate we

640
00:19:57,350 --> 00:19:56,320
probably considered modern or late

641
00:20:00,310 --> 00:19:57,360
modern you could say

642
00:20:01,590 --> 00:20:00,320
contemporary arts tends to be more uh

643
00:20:03,669 --> 00:20:01,600
cynical

644
00:20:05,190 --> 00:20:03,679
and and we'll take modern conventions

645
00:20:07,510 --> 00:20:05,200
and be more playful about them

646
00:20:08,630 --> 00:20:07,520
and will create a kind of parody for

647
00:20:11,350 --> 00:20:08,640
example uh

648
00:20:13,669 --> 00:20:11,360
a german artist like uh richter who is

649
00:20:15,190 --> 00:20:13,679
an abstract artist but his abstract art

650
00:20:16,950 --> 00:20:15,200
is considered to be a kind of

651
00:20:18,470 --> 00:20:16,960
parody of abstract art where it's a it's

652
00:20:21,430 --> 00:20:18,480
almost like a comment on

653
00:20:23,510 --> 00:20:21,440
abstract art it's not directly abstract

654
00:20:25,029 --> 00:20:23,520
art it looks like abstract art with a

655
00:20:28,390 --> 00:20:25,039
kind of photo

656
00:20:29,110 --> 00:20:28,400
kind of weird photo uh lack of focus in

657
00:20:31,830 --> 00:20:29,120
it

658
00:20:33,750 --> 00:20:31,840
and there's a lot of neo abstract

659
00:20:35,430 --> 00:20:33,760
artists who are actually

660
00:20:37,590 --> 00:20:35,440
there's a kind of weird cynicism to what

661
00:20:39,110 --> 00:20:37,600
they're doing but it gets very confusing

662
00:20:42,310 --> 00:20:39,120
contemporary art right now is just a

663
00:20:42,630 --> 00:20:42,320
giant ball of anything like you it's

664
00:20:44,390 --> 00:20:42,640
very

665
00:20:46,310 --> 00:20:44,400
difficult to know there is a post

666
00:20:48,390 --> 00:20:46,320
post-modern or at least

667
00:20:49,430 --> 00:20:48,400
i think no i think that we have i think

668
00:20:51,830 --> 00:20:49,440
that what i'm doing is

669
00:20:52,789 --> 00:20:51,840
is could be considered post-post-modern

670
00:20:54,789 --> 00:20:52,799
and

671
00:20:55,909 --> 00:20:54,799
i'm part of a group let's say of people

672
00:20:58,630 --> 00:20:55,919
who have

673
00:20:59,510 --> 00:20:58,640
grown up in contemporary art who learn

674
00:21:02,470 --> 00:20:59,520
contemporary art

675
00:21:04,070 --> 00:21:02,480
several who are who had a promising

676
00:21:04,950 --> 00:21:04,080
contemporary art career ahead of them

677
00:21:08,070 --> 00:21:04,960
you know they had

678
00:21:08,710 --> 00:21:08,080
they were in galleries they had um they

679
00:21:10,549 --> 00:21:08,720
had different

680
00:21:11,990 --> 00:21:10,559
uh scholarships and everything to big

681
00:21:14,149 --> 00:21:12,000
schools but then

682
00:21:15,510 --> 00:21:14,159
they kind of came to the end of the kind

683
00:21:16,470 --> 00:21:15,520
of say like they came to the end of the

684
00:21:19,590 --> 00:21:16,480
carnival

685
00:21:22,149 --> 00:21:19,600
you know at some point

686
00:21:23,430 --> 00:21:22,159
you've eaten enough pie and you're

687
00:21:26,070 --> 00:21:23,440
you're you know you've had enough

688
00:21:27,510 --> 00:21:26,080
uh you had enough pizza had enough pizza

689
00:21:30,149 --> 00:21:27,520
exactly you had enough uh

690
00:21:31,350 --> 00:21:30,159
sugar and and and and blinking lights

691
00:21:34,149 --> 00:21:31,360
and so

692
00:21:35,590 --> 00:21:34,159
what ends up happening is a rediscovery

693
00:21:37,350 --> 00:21:35,600
of

694
00:21:39,029 --> 00:21:37,360
what i would call traditional art and i

695
00:21:40,789 --> 00:21:39,039
and i see that you see that

696
00:21:42,149 --> 00:21:40,799
so so i know several iconographers who

697
00:21:45,590 --> 00:21:42,159
make icons for churches

698
00:21:47,190 --> 00:21:45,600
who who had that exact turn where they

699
00:21:48,310 --> 00:21:47,200
came to the end of contemporary art and

700
00:21:50,789 --> 00:21:48,320
they realized

701
00:21:52,310 --> 00:21:50,799
this is this is just nihilism it's just

702
00:21:55,350 --> 00:21:52,320
nihilism on steroids

703
00:21:56,950 --> 00:21:55,360
and so they they re-embrace let's say

704
00:21:58,630 --> 00:21:56,960
the traditional language of

705
00:22:00,390 --> 00:21:58,640
of the church something doesn't happen

706
00:22:01,510 --> 00:22:00,400
within a

707
00:22:02,950 --> 00:22:01,520
field of modern okay so there's

708
00:22:04,230 --> 00:22:02,960
modernism there's post-modernism then

709
00:22:07,830 --> 00:22:04,240
there's traditionalism

710
00:22:09,350 --> 00:22:07,840
now does this cycle happen even within

711
00:22:10,710 --> 00:22:09,360
a section so there's the section of

712
00:22:11,590 --> 00:22:10,720
traditional intersection of modernism

713
00:22:14,230 --> 00:22:11,600
and post-modernism

714
00:22:14,710 --> 00:22:14,240
or does it happen within i think that

715
00:22:16,870 --> 00:22:14,720
happened

716
00:22:18,230 --> 00:22:16,880
as with the sections as a whole well the

717
00:22:19,510 --> 00:22:18,240
problem the problem with the

718
00:22:20,870 --> 00:22:19,520
contemporary art world

719
00:22:23,110 --> 00:22:20,880
is that the very setup of the

720
00:22:25,350 --> 00:22:23,120
contemporary art world is

721
00:22:26,710 --> 00:22:25,360
is not conducive for it within that

722
00:22:28,549 --> 00:22:26,720
world for

723
00:22:31,190 --> 00:22:28,559
let's say a return to order to happen or

724
00:22:31,750 --> 00:22:31,200
a let's say a a post-post modernism to

725
00:22:35,510 --> 00:22:31,760
happen

726
00:22:38,149 --> 00:22:35,520
because you you have a a return to the

727
00:22:39,430 --> 00:22:38,159
proper balance between order and chaos

728
00:22:41,029 --> 00:22:39,440
because as you were saying can't just be

729
00:22:42,149 --> 00:22:41,039
returned to order because the fascists

730
00:22:43,830 --> 00:22:42,159
had extreme order

731
00:22:45,510 --> 00:22:43,840
right for them it would be returned to

732
00:22:47,990 --> 00:22:45,520
the middle exactly

733
00:22:49,190 --> 00:22:48,000
the problem is that's true in the modern

734
00:22:50,149 --> 00:22:49,200
one of the things we forget about

735
00:22:54,310 --> 00:22:50,159
modernism

736
00:22:57,430 --> 00:22:54,320
which we don't

737
00:22:58,549 --> 00:22:57,440
tend to to uh to think of which is

738
00:23:04,310 --> 00:22:58,559
social realism

739
00:23:05,990 --> 00:23:04,320
very much as a just pure propaganda like

740
00:23:09,029 --> 00:23:06,000
just a pure propaganda tool

741
00:23:11,830 --> 00:23:09,039
because it's whole style its whole

742
00:23:13,029 --> 00:23:11,840
affectations are basically you know a

743
00:23:16,230 --> 00:23:13,039
kind of um

744
00:23:18,230 --> 00:23:16,240
sentimentality you know a kind of going

745
00:23:19,029 --> 00:23:18,240
in to get your sense of nationalism or

746
00:23:22,070 --> 00:23:19,039
your sense of

747
00:23:24,310 --> 00:23:22,080
of uh of uh of courage or whatever

748
00:23:25,990 --> 00:23:24,320
and so they they tend to push you

749
00:23:28,070 --> 00:23:26,000
towards um

750
00:23:29,669 --> 00:23:28,080
towards uh propaganda so what people

751
00:23:31,029 --> 00:23:29,679
traditionally think of as propaganda is

752
00:23:33,350 --> 00:23:31,039
social realism

753
00:23:35,430 --> 00:23:33,360
i i mean usually those are the things

754
00:23:36,310 --> 00:23:35,440
like these nazi propagandists yes they

755
00:23:37,909 --> 00:23:36,320
are and

756
00:23:39,510 --> 00:23:37,919
the same with uh the same with the

757
00:23:42,149 --> 00:23:39,520
russians like the russians had

758
00:23:43,350 --> 00:23:42,159
a whole tradition of of social realism i

759
00:23:45,990 --> 00:23:43,360
mean jordan peterson has

760
00:23:46,789 --> 00:23:46,000
has collected them his house is full of

761
00:23:49,510 --> 00:23:46,799
of social of

762
00:23:51,029 --> 00:23:49,520
russian social realism where the purpose

763
00:23:52,549 --> 00:23:51,039
of these paintings is to

764
00:23:54,310 --> 00:23:52,559
make you a good citizen right to make

765
00:23:56,710 --> 00:23:54,320
you participate in in

766
00:23:58,870 --> 00:23:56,720
uh in the state do you see elements of

767
00:24:01,190 --> 00:23:58,880
social realism in the modern films

768
00:24:01,990 --> 00:24:01,200
that we have now like mona i think it's

769
00:24:04,870 --> 00:24:02,000
called mona

770
00:24:05,430 --> 00:24:04,880
the one that you analyze mona moana and

771
00:24:10,310 --> 00:24:05,440
then

772
00:24:11,909 --> 00:24:10,320
well right now we we don't i would say

773
00:24:14,230 --> 00:24:11,919
that we're not we're not using social

774
00:24:17,190 --> 00:24:14,240
realism for our propaganda anymore

775
00:24:18,149 --> 00:24:17,200
the uh because it's a different it's a

776
00:24:22,470 --> 00:24:18,159
weird different

777
00:24:25,430 --> 00:24:22,480
than for example early century

778
00:24:25,990 --> 00:24:25,440
early one of the things that has

779
00:24:29,510 --> 00:24:26,000
happened

780
00:24:31,110 --> 00:24:29,520
is let's say

781
00:24:33,269 --> 00:24:31,120
the revolutionary elements of our

782
00:24:35,269 --> 00:24:33,279
society they they've actually

783
00:24:37,669 --> 00:24:35,279
understood symbolism they've been the

784
00:24:40,390 --> 00:24:37,679
ones who for the past let's say 50 years

785
00:24:40,870 --> 00:24:40,400
have understood symbolism the most and

786
00:24:43,990 --> 00:24:40,880
so

787
00:24:47,269 --> 00:24:44,000
they've actually been using

788
00:24:49,750 --> 00:24:47,279
let's say mythological structures to

789
00:24:50,390 --> 00:24:49,760
affect to you to affect their propaganda

790
00:24:52,549 --> 00:24:50,400
it's very different

791
00:24:55,029 --> 00:24:52,559
much like the nazi symbol being what

792
00:24:56,470 --> 00:24:55,039
what was it swastika was what yeah

793
00:24:58,070 --> 00:24:56,480
was it i mean the swastika is one of the

794
00:24:59,909 --> 00:24:58,080
most ancient images

795
00:25:01,590 --> 00:24:59,919
one of the most ancient symbols that

796
00:25:02,950 --> 00:25:01,600
exist it's it's uh

797
00:25:04,870 --> 00:25:02,960
it's an image that is universal you

798
00:25:06,390 --> 00:25:04,880
could find it in all cultures uh

799
00:25:08,149 --> 00:25:06,400
you can find it in you can go to a

800
00:25:09,430 --> 00:25:08,159
church medieval church and see swastikas

801
00:25:10,230 --> 00:25:09,440
you can go to a hindu temple and see

802
00:25:12,390 --> 00:25:10,240
swastikas

803
00:25:13,430 --> 00:25:12,400
it is it's probably one of the oldest

804
00:25:16,149 --> 00:25:13,440
images we have

805
00:25:16,710 --> 00:25:16,159
and so they were able to to to take it

806
00:25:19,750 --> 00:25:16,720
to

807
00:25:21,110 --> 00:25:19,760
it uh

808
00:25:23,190 --> 00:25:21,120
instead of making it straight they

809
00:25:24,789 --> 00:25:23,200
slanted it i think that it's in

810
00:25:27,350 --> 00:25:24,799
the nazis are a really good example in a

811
00:25:30,310 --> 00:25:27,360
way in the sense that the nazis

812
00:25:32,070 --> 00:25:30,320
they wanted to co-op mythological

813
00:25:34,230 --> 00:25:32,080
thinking more than others

814
00:25:35,269 --> 00:25:34,240
they had a weird they also they had a

815
00:25:37,830 --> 00:25:35,279
weird uh

816
00:25:39,590 --> 00:25:37,840
religious feel to them right they they

817
00:25:42,789 --> 00:25:39,600
had that kind of strange esoteric

818
00:25:43,350 --> 00:25:42,799
and uh you know a desire to renew to

819
00:25:46,630 --> 00:25:43,360
revive

820
00:25:47,830 --> 00:25:46,640
uh northern gods they also had weird

821
00:25:51,510 --> 00:25:47,840
contacts with uh

822
00:25:55,350 --> 00:25:51,520
with uh indian the the the uh the

823
00:25:56,870 --> 00:25:55,360
aristocracy in india with the uh um

824
00:25:58,789 --> 00:25:56,880
what are the names of the the cast and i

825
00:25:59,750 --> 00:25:58,799
can't remember anything in the cast um

826
00:26:01,750 --> 00:25:59,760
so do you think that's one of the

827
00:26:03,350 --> 00:26:01,760
reasons why why these totalitarian

828
00:26:05,110 --> 00:26:03,360
regimes when they come in particularly

829
00:26:05,669 --> 00:26:05,120
on the left so particularly communist

830
00:26:07,909 --> 00:26:05,679
regimes

831
00:26:09,110 --> 00:26:07,919
that they want to obliterate traditional

832
00:26:11,430 --> 00:26:09,120
art and obliterate

833
00:26:12,710 --> 00:26:11,440
religion and ban it oh for sure because

834
00:26:14,710 --> 00:26:12,720
they understand it

835
00:26:16,230 --> 00:26:14,720
well they because they they understand

836
00:26:17,430 --> 00:26:16,240
how potent it is

837
00:26:19,510 --> 00:26:17,440
and also because especially the

838
00:26:21,590 --> 00:26:19,520
communists the communist uh

839
00:26:23,590 --> 00:26:21,600
groups they really wanted to because

840
00:26:26,070 --> 00:26:23,600
they believe that the human person

841
00:26:27,029 --> 00:26:26,080
is malleable right that we're a blank

842
00:26:29,750 --> 00:26:27,039
slate type

843
00:26:30,470 --> 00:26:29,760
and so what they they wanted to destroy

844
00:26:41,830 --> 00:26:30,480
the

845
00:26:43,669 --> 00:26:41,840
over 30 000 churches

846
00:26:45,110 --> 00:26:43,679
just during the the early times of

847
00:26:46,950 --> 00:26:45,120
stalin

848
00:26:48,789 --> 00:26:46,960
and you know we all know that the maoist

849
00:26:49,909 --> 00:26:48,799
cultural revolution was insane

850
00:26:51,909 --> 00:26:49,919
you know they just went around

851
00:26:52,470 --> 00:26:51,919
destroying not only destroying but

852
00:26:53,909 --> 00:26:52,480
execute

853
00:26:55,909 --> 00:26:53,919
executing anybody that had to do with

854
00:26:56,870 --> 00:26:55,919
the priesthood yeah and the same thing i

855
00:26:58,950 --> 00:26:56,880
mean or buddhists

856
00:27:00,549 --> 00:26:58,960
really early communists or russia

857
00:27:02,950 --> 00:27:00,559
russians would go around you know

858
00:27:04,789 --> 00:27:02,960
and just just to shoot priests in the

859
00:27:07,269 --> 00:27:04,799
head you know it was a cra it was an

860
00:27:10,549 --> 00:27:07,279
insane time so it's like liquidating

861
00:27:11,430 --> 00:27:10,559
the the uh the imagery in order to bring

862
00:27:14,630 --> 00:27:11,440
about their

863
00:27:17,669 --> 00:27:14,640
their utopia but today we

864
00:27:19,269 --> 00:27:17,679
today it's weird it's different our our

865
00:27:21,190 --> 00:27:19,279
version of that let's say our

866
00:27:23,110 --> 00:27:21,200
version of propaganda is a little

867
00:27:25,909 --> 00:27:23,120
different from that it's more

868
00:27:27,590 --> 00:27:25,919
it's more insipid and it's more it tends

869
00:27:28,950 --> 00:27:27,600
to understand like i said it tends to be

870
00:27:32,470 --> 00:27:28,960
more subversive

871
00:27:33,430 --> 00:27:32,480
rather than directly offensive in in the

872
00:27:39,110 --> 00:27:33,440
sense that

873
00:27:43,750 --> 00:27:41,029
it's better to show like the show in

874
00:27:44,710 --> 00:27:43,760
versions and to to to to have stories

875
00:27:48,070 --> 00:27:44,720
with

876
00:27:48,549 --> 00:27:48,080
the notion that the inverted is becomes

877
00:27:52,870 --> 00:27:48,559
the

878
00:27:55,430 --> 00:27:52,880
way to that that a lot of

879
00:27:56,789 --> 00:27:55,440
propaganda is happening now um and so

880
00:27:58,789 --> 00:27:56,799
it's it's a bit different and so

881
00:28:00,549 --> 00:27:58,799
sometimes it's tricky because sometimes

882
00:28:01,110 --> 00:28:00,559
the stories actually end up looking very

883
00:28:03,350 --> 00:28:01,120
much

884
00:28:05,029 --> 00:28:03,360
like ancient traditional stories it's

885
00:28:06,710 --> 00:28:05,039
often just that they're upside down or

886
00:28:07,190 --> 00:28:06,720
that there's a like shrek is a great

887
00:28:09,590 --> 00:28:07,200
example

888
00:28:10,950 --> 00:28:09,600
shrek is like the most the easiest

889
00:28:13,669 --> 00:28:10,960
example to see

890
00:28:15,350 --> 00:28:13,679
where it looks like a fairy tale but

891
00:28:18,230 --> 00:28:15,360
it's actually an upside down it's a

892
00:28:19,269 --> 00:28:18,240
totally upside down fairy tale where you

893
00:28:21,269 --> 00:28:19,279
have an ogre

894
00:28:22,789 --> 00:28:21,279
ogre and a princess you know the ogre is

895
00:28:23,669 --> 00:28:22,799
this monster and they they present them

896
00:28:24,789 --> 00:28:23,679
as a monster

897
00:28:26,710 --> 00:28:24,799
so that would be an example of a

898
00:28:27,430 --> 00:28:26,720
post-modern film yeah of an upside-down

899
00:28:30,470 --> 00:28:27,440
fairy tale

900
00:28:31,269 --> 00:28:30,480
of a subversive use of traditional

901
00:28:35,269 --> 00:28:31,279
tropes

902
00:28:37,350 --> 00:28:35,279
they're just totally upside down

903
00:28:38,310 --> 00:28:37,360
you know the ogre is represented as a

904
00:28:39,830 --> 00:28:38,320
monster he

905
00:28:41,430 --> 00:28:39,840
suggested it suggests that he's a

906
00:28:42,310 --> 00:28:41,440
cannibal he suggests all these things

907
00:28:44,950 --> 00:28:42,320
that the normal

908
00:28:47,350 --> 00:28:44,960
ogre is and then he meets a princess and

909
00:28:50,389 --> 00:28:47,360
in the end the princess becomes an ogre

910
00:28:52,310 --> 00:28:50,399
and it's like okay the shape of water is

911
00:28:52,870 --> 00:28:52,320
a great example too recent more recent

912
00:28:55,430 --> 00:28:52,880
version

913
00:28:56,149 --> 00:28:55,440
where all the normative characters you

914
00:28:59,190 --> 00:28:56,159
know the

915
00:28:59,590 --> 00:28:59,200
the christian the the the the the white

916
00:29:01,909 --> 00:28:59,600
male

917
00:29:03,110 --> 00:29:01,919
all that they're all absolutely evil

918
00:29:06,310 --> 00:29:03,120
okay and uh

919
00:29:07,990 --> 00:29:06,320
and then all the kind of exceptional

920
00:29:09,350 --> 00:29:08,000
characters like the monster

921
00:29:11,510 --> 00:29:09,360
and then all these other exceptional

922
00:29:12,470 --> 00:29:11,520
categories are somehow pure and innocent

923
00:29:16,230 --> 00:29:12,480
and all of that

924
00:29:17,990 --> 00:29:16,240
and then in the end the the the woman

925
00:29:19,830 --> 00:29:18,000
becomes becomes a monster like that's

926
00:29:21,029 --> 00:29:19,840
how it ends she goes into the water she

927
00:29:22,630 --> 00:29:21,039
becomes a sea monster

928
00:29:24,149 --> 00:29:22,640
and it's like we're so used to it we

929
00:29:24,549 --> 00:29:24,159
think that somehow that that's a normal

930
00:29:26,389 --> 00:29:24,559
way

931
00:29:27,669 --> 00:29:26,399
for a story to go but it's very

932
00:29:29,110 --> 00:29:27,679
disturbing you know

933
00:29:31,909 --> 00:29:29,120
enormous i've seen that so much in the

934
00:29:33,190 --> 00:29:31,919
past 15 years yeah and a normal story

935
00:29:35,430 --> 00:29:33,200
like the story of the frog and the

936
00:29:37,190 --> 00:29:35,440
princess for example is that

937
00:29:39,590 --> 00:29:37,200
the exceptional character the frog this

938
00:29:43,190 --> 00:29:39,600
talking frog who's a monster

939
00:29:45,750 --> 00:29:43,200
is by some proof of their virtue

940
00:29:47,430 --> 00:29:45,760
integrated into the world right little

941
00:29:49,350 --> 00:29:47,440
mermaid becomes a human

942
00:29:51,430 --> 00:29:49,360
yeah well that's a difficult thing

943
00:29:51,669 --> 00:29:51,440
becomes a human yeah pano is a yeah

944
00:29:54,389 --> 00:29:51,679
that's

945
00:29:56,149 --> 00:29:54,399
know miyazaki i've been watching

946
00:29:57,830 --> 00:29:56,159
miyazaki films because you commented on

947
00:29:59,510 --> 00:29:57,840
spirited away and i wanted to watch it

948
00:30:01,269 --> 00:29:59,520
again so i started watching a few

949
00:30:02,549 --> 00:30:01,279
and i was trying to put my finger on why

950
00:30:04,950 --> 00:30:02,559
is it so it's

951
00:30:06,230 --> 00:30:04,960
it's damn good his films are very good

952
00:30:07,830 --> 00:30:06,240
and i realized not only

953
00:30:09,669 --> 00:30:07,840
are they magical and whimsical like a

954
00:30:12,549 --> 00:30:09,679
child and an imaginative

955
00:30:14,389 --> 00:30:12,559
but there's a complete lack of cynicism

956
00:30:16,950 --> 00:30:14,399
yeah a complete lack of sarcasm

957
00:30:18,389 --> 00:30:16,960
sarcasm or or sardonic commentary yeah

958
00:30:19,110 --> 00:30:18,399
no that's i think you really put your

959
00:30:21,110 --> 00:30:19,120
finger on it

960
00:30:22,230 --> 00:30:21,120
and i think that because we're in a

961
00:30:24,789 --> 00:30:22,240
situation

962
00:30:25,510 --> 00:30:24,799
because of our because of technology and

963
00:30:27,669 --> 00:30:25,520
because of

964
00:30:29,510 --> 00:30:27,679
our extremely ordered societies where we

965
00:30:31,269 --> 00:30:29,520
have a

966
00:30:32,789 --> 00:30:31,279
you know everything is controlled by the

967
00:30:34,230 --> 00:30:32,799
state basically not everything but

968
00:30:35,750 --> 00:30:34,240
so much of our world is controlled by

969
00:30:37,110 --> 00:30:35,760
the state and by these giant

970
00:30:40,710 --> 00:30:37,120
corporations and everything

971
00:30:42,950 --> 00:30:40,720
we have a need for feminine symbolism

972
00:30:44,070 --> 00:30:42,960
we have a need for the private sphere we

973
00:30:46,789 --> 00:30:44,080
have a need for

974
00:30:47,990 --> 00:30:46,799
the refreshing aspect of of our personal

975
00:30:48,630 --> 00:30:48,000
relationships all this feminine

976
00:30:51,510 --> 00:30:48,640
symbolism

977
00:30:53,190 --> 00:30:51,520
we have a desire and a need for it and

978
00:30:55,590 --> 00:30:53,200
the thing about miyazaki is that

979
00:30:57,110 --> 00:30:55,600
almost all his films take on this

980
00:30:58,470 --> 00:30:57,120
feminine symbolism but he does it in

981
00:31:02,070 --> 00:30:58,480
such a beautiful

982
00:31:04,710 --> 00:31:02,080
way where he doesn't feel the need to be

983
00:31:06,710 --> 00:31:04,720
subversive or to kind of show how you

984
00:31:08,630 --> 00:31:06,720
know the male character is an idiot or

985
00:31:10,149 --> 00:31:08,640
or or yeah there's useless there's a

986
00:31:12,310 --> 00:31:10,159
complete absence or lack

987
00:31:13,590 --> 00:31:12,320
of a political message oh yeah no i

988
00:31:15,269 --> 00:31:13,600
think the closest maybe

989
00:31:16,789 --> 00:31:15,279
ponyo where he says the humans are

990
00:31:19,110 --> 00:31:16,799
ruining the earth right with their ships

991
00:31:20,549 --> 00:31:19,120
that's the closest that i found so far

992
00:31:22,230 --> 00:31:20,559
but i agree i agree that that's what

993
00:31:23,830 --> 00:31:22,240
makes him so strong and that's why and

994
00:31:24,630 --> 00:31:23,840
they make him so strong also because

995
00:31:26,870 --> 00:31:24,640
he's able

996
00:31:28,870 --> 00:31:26,880
to create strong female characters but

997
00:31:30,710 --> 00:31:28,880
in a manner which is not

998
00:31:32,789 --> 00:31:30,720
doesn't it doesn't have that kind of

999
00:31:34,789 --> 00:31:32,799
anger and bitterness and cynicism in it

1000
00:31:36,389 --> 00:31:34,799
where it's more like a celebration of

1001
00:31:37,590 --> 00:31:36,399
of these beautiful feminine characters

1002
00:31:38,389 --> 00:31:37,600
and it doesn't make the feminine the

1003
00:31:40,310 --> 00:31:38,399
masculine

1004
00:31:41,909 --> 00:31:40,320
it doesn't make a girl have

1005
00:31:42,549 --> 00:31:41,919
traditionally masculine qualities and

1006
00:31:45,669 --> 00:31:42,559
then say

1007
00:31:46,789 --> 00:31:45,679
we're subverting notions of gender yeah

1008
00:31:48,710 --> 00:31:46,799
because that's what i mean that's what

1009
00:31:50,070 --> 00:31:48,720
so many of the the like the superhero

1010
00:31:51,590 --> 00:31:50,080
moves that we've seen recently and

1011
00:31:53,350 --> 00:31:51,600
a lot of the like the star wars movies

1012
00:31:53,990 --> 00:31:53,360
and everything is and i think that's why

1013
00:31:56,789 --> 00:31:54,000
people are

1014
00:31:57,350 --> 00:31:56,799
are kind of annoyed with them is because

1015
00:31:59,430 --> 00:31:57,360
they're

1016
00:32:00,549 --> 00:31:59,440
it's not only the desire to make let's

1017
00:32:03,110 --> 00:32:00,559
say a

1018
00:32:04,389 --> 00:32:03,120
feminine care a female character into

1019
00:32:06,310 --> 00:32:04,399
the same action hero

1020
00:32:07,590 --> 00:32:06,320
that we've had you know since the 1980s

1021
00:32:09,990 --> 00:32:07,600
that everybody's criticized

1022
00:32:11,990 --> 00:32:10,000
like it's you know it's the feminist or

1023
00:32:13,269 --> 00:32:12,000
you know the the postmodern criticized

1024
00:32:15,830 --> 00:32:13,279
that figure of the

1025
00:32:17,750 --> 00:32:15,840
of this of the hero of the male hero and

1026
00:32:18,149 --> 00:32:17,760
so but now you want to make a woman into

1027
00:32:21,590 --> 00:32:18,159
it

1028
00:32:23,430 --> 00:32:21,600
male exactly

1029
00:32:25,190 --> 00:32:23,440
like masculinity becomes good if it's a

1030
00:32:27,190 --> 00:32:25,200
female who embodies it

1031
00:32:28,549 --> 00:32:27,200
it's just completely it's completely

1032
00:32:29,909 --> 00:32:28,559
upside down and here's what else what

1033
00:32:32,070 --> 00:32:29,919
else does i find funny about that

1034
00:32:33,430 --> 00:32:32,080
then feminine femininity is just

1035
00:32:36,389 --> 00:32:33,440
unattractive when it's attached to a

1036
00:32:37,750 --> 00:32:36,399
male so as a male you can't win

1037
00:32:39,350 --> 00:32:37,760
it's very difficult if you're if you're

1038
00:32:39,750 --> 00:32:39,360
a masculine so but if you're attractive

1039
00:32:41,830 --> 00:32:39,760
and you're

1040
00:32:43,190 --> 00:32:41,840
toxic and you have toxic masculinity you

1041
00:32:44,789 --> 00:32:43,200
can get away with almost anything yeah

1042
00:32:46,710 --> 00:32:44,799
we had this conversation with janice

1043
00:32:49,669 --> 00:32:46,720
fiamango that the people who are getting

1044
00:32:50,470 --> 00:32:49,679
who are getting sent letters saying stop

1045
00:32:52,549 --> 00:32:50,480
what you're doing

1046
00:32:53,990 --> 00:32:52,559
is are they tend to be people who are

1047
00:32:55,430 --> 00:32:54,000
unattractive yeah males

1048
00:32:57,269 --> 00:32:55,440
yeah exactly if you were an attractive

1049
00:32:58,950 --> 00:32:57,279
male then the woman wouldn't find it

1050
00:32:59,590 --> 00:32:58,960
catcalling she would find it no i

1051
00:33:01,190 --> 00:32:59,600
totally agree

1052
00:33:02,950 --> 00:33:01,200
who's that who's the british comedian

1053
00:33:04,230 --> 00:33:02,960
there that jordan did an interview with

1054
00:33:07,909 --> 00:33:04,240
i forget his name

1055
00:33:10,870 --> 00:33:07,919
the this one british comedian

1056
00:33:11,269 --> 00:33:10,880
he's milo no no he's he jordan jordan

1057
00:33:12,789 --> 00:33:11,279
did

1058
00:33:14,710 --> 00:33:12,799
i think he was like he was like a huge

1059
00:33:15,110 --> 00:33:14,720
deal and he he came to press and

1060
00:33:16,549 --> 00:33:15,120
everything

1061
00:33:17,990 --> 00:33:16,559
he did an interview with sam harris and

1062
00:33:19,909 --> 00:33:18,000
he did interview with jordan he's kind

1063
00:33:22,149 --> 00:33:19,919
of on board with intel intellectual dark

1064
00:33:23,350 --> 00:33:22,159
anyways he was like he was this super

1065
00:33:25,509 --> 00:33:23,360
good looking guy and

1066
00:33:26,389 --> 00:33:25,519
he was extremely promiscuous you know

1067
00:33:27,909 --> 00:33:26,399
and just

1068
00:33:29,509 --> 00:33:27,919
had loads and loads of sex all kinds of

1069
00:33:31,110 --> 00:33:29,519
women and i saw russell brown yeah

1070
00:33:33,110 --> 00:33:31,120
russell brent i saw him once

1071
00:33:34,630 --> 00:33:33,120
meeting with a woman talking to her and

1072
00:33:35,909 --> 00:33:34,640
he reached back behind her back and he

1073
00:33:38,389 --> 00:33:35,919
undid her bra like

1074
00:33:39,509 --> 00:33:38,399
that and oh and everybody was laughing

1075
00:33:41,269 --> 00:33:39,519
and she was laughing and she's like oh

1076
00:33:44,230 --> 00:33:41,279
what did you do it's so funny

1077
00:33:46,310 --> 00:33:44,240
and like really interesting you know

1078
00:33:47,909 --> 00:33:46,320
imagine if anybody else had done that

1079
00:33:49,830 --> 00:33:47,919
you know what it would have been and i'm

1080
00:33:51,110 --> 00:33:49,840
just i mean i i'm figuring like maybe

1081
00:33:52,549 --> 00:33:51,120
russell ren at some point you're

1082
00:33:54,389 --> 00:33:52,559
to turn on him when he kind of when he

1083
00:33:56,389 --> 00:33:54,399
loses his attractive edge

1084
00:33:58,389 --> 00:33:56,399
they might turn on him at some point but

1085
00:34:01,990 --> 00:33:58,399
uh yeah and i agree that it's mostly

1086
00:34:03,990 --> 00:34:02,000
that that certain behaviors uh let's say

1087
00:34:05,990 --> 00:34:04,000
trying to trying to be flirty with a

1088
00:34:07,750 --> 00:34:06,000
woman if you're good-looking and you're

1089
00:34:09,190 --> 00:34:07,760
into you're desirable then that's not a

1090
00:34:10,470 --> 00:34:09,200
problem but if you're ugly

1091
00:34:12,790 --> 00:34:10,480
let's get to lord of the rings all right

1092
00:34:14,470 --> 00:34:12,800
lord of the rings i want you to tell me

1093
00:34:16,149 --> 00:34:14,480
the story of no don't tell me the story

1094
00:34:19,349 --> 00:34:16,159
is gonna take hours and hours

1095
00:34:22,710 --> 00:34:19,359
tell me the symbolism behind the ring

1096
00:34:24,149 --> 00:34:22,720
well the ring the ring is really power i

1097
00:34:27,190 --> 00:34:24,159
mean it's called the ring of power

1098
00:34:28,550 --> 00:34:27,200
uh but i think that the ring is is

1099
00:34:31,270 --> 00:34:28,560
the power in the sense that we

1100
00:34:34,470 --> 00:34:31,280
understand it today in in the sense of

1101
00:34:35,430 --> 00:34:34,480
technological power that is the capacity

1102
00:34:37,589 --> 00:34:35,440
to

1103
00:34:39,190 --> 00:34:37,599
affect the world right so it could be

1104
00:34:41,270 --> 00:34:39,200
political as well

1105
00:34:42,470 --> 00:34:41,280
but a good way to understand it is is

1106
00:34:45,909 --> 00:34:42,480
technological power

1107
00:34:49,190 --> 00:34:45,919
in the sense that it's it's a it's the

1108
00:34:51,349 --> 00:34:49,200
the capacity to control to affect

1109
00:34:52,310 --> 00:34:51,359
uh things around you and so the ring

1110
00:34:54,230 --> 00:34:52,320
itself

1111
00:34:56,230 --> 00:34:54,240
this symbol of metallurgy is a very

1112
00:34:58,310 --> 00:34:56,240
ancient symbol of exactly that

1113
00:35:00,390 --> 00:34:58,320
right in the bible you have this notion

1114
00:35:02,470 --> 00:35:00,400
that as the fall of man

1115
00:35:03,990 --> 00:35:02,480
kind of increases moving towards the

1116
00:35:06,550 --> 00:35:04,000
flood one of the steps

1117
00:35:07,589 --> 00:35:06,560
is the creation of of met of metallurgy

1118
00:35:11,030 --> 00:35:07,599
with two balcane

1119
00:35:12,790 --> 00:35:11,040
and the forging of weapons but then

1120
00:35:14,550 --> 00:35:12,800
it's there in other traditions as well

1121
00:35:16,550 --> 00:35:14,560
and other somebody was telling me a

1122
00:35:17,750 --> 00:35:16,560
nordic tradition about almost the same

1123
00:35:20,710 --> 00:35:17,760
idea that

1124
00:35:21,910 --> 00:35:20,720
the and in greek in greek uh thinking

1125
00:35:24,790 --> 00:35:21,920
you know uh

1126
00:35:25,829 --> 00:35:24,800
hephaestus the god of uh metallurgy is a

1127
00:35:27,910 --> 00:35:25,839
he's a

1128
00:35:30,150 --> 00:35:27,920
he's kind of like a monstrous deformed

1129
00:35:33,829 --> 00:35:30,160
god who who was kicked out of

1130
00:35:36,390 --> 00:35:33,839
uh the the the olympia of olympus

1131
00:35:37,910 --> 00:35:36,400
and lives in a kind of dark fiery place

1132
00:35:39,910 --> 00:35:37,920
and that's where he makes his

1133
00:35:41,910 --> 00:35:39,920
and so it's like this it's kind of like

1134
00:35:45,430 --> 00:35:41,920
an image of the capacity

1135
00:35:48,150 --> 00:35:45,440
on the margin to to uh

1136
00:35:49,910 --> 00:35:48,160
to control the the the outside you could

1137
00:35:51,430 --> 00:35:49,920
say something like that

1138
00:35:53,670 --> 00:35:51,440
does that make sense yeah yeah yeah and

1139
00:35:55,589 --> 00:35:53,680
then you're saying how

1140
00:35:56,790 --> 00:35:55,599
the the ring becoming something that

1141
00:35:59,910 --> 00:35:56,800
makes you invisible

1142
00:36:02,550 --> 00:35:59,920
makes sense because right well

1143
00:36:03,510 --> 00:36:02,560
the the idea is that you have to

1144
00:36:04,870 --> 00:36:03,520
understand it

1145
00:36:06,790 --> 00:36:04,880
you have to understand technology or if

1146
00:36:09,270 --> 00:36:06,800
you have to understand power

1147
00:36:10,710 --> 00:36:09,280
or capacity to move out into the margin

1148
00:36:11,510 --> 00:36:10,720
you have to understand it as adding

1149
00:36:14,790 --> 00:36:11,520
layers

1150
00:36:16,230 --> 00:36:14,800
to yourself right that's that's a good

1151
00:36:18,310 --> 00:36:16,240
way to understand technology you could

1152
00:36:19,430 --> 00:36:18,320
add the supplement so you supplement

1153
00:36:21,670 --> 00:36:19,440
your existence

1154
00:36:22,630 --> 00:36:21,680
with something so you know you wear

1155
00:36:25,990 --> 00:36:22,640
clothes

1156
00:36:26,470 --> 00:36:26,000
then you can live further out right you

1157
00:36:28,550 --> 00:36:26,480
used to be

1158
00:36:30,069 --> 00:36:28,560
only to live on the equator now you can

1159
00:36:31,030 --> 00:36:30,079
live further out from the equator

1160
00:36:31,750 --> 00:36:31,040
because you have clothes and you can

1161
00:36:33,670 --> 00:36:31,760
keep warm

1162
00:36:35,430 --> 00:36:33,680
then you develop houses you develop

1163
00:36:39,109 --> 00:36:35,440
develop different technologies

1164
00:36:41,510 --> 00:36:39,119
to to bolster your capacity to live

1165
00:36:43,349 --> 00:36:41,520
further out so imagine now the same

1166
00:36:45,349 --> 00:36:43,359
thing in terms of political power

1167
00:36:46,870 --> 00:36:45,359
you're one person what can you do you

1168
00:36:49,589 --> 00:36:46,880
can't do much so you

1169
00:36:50,310 --> 00:36:49,599
you you in becoming in adding power to

1170
00:36:53,670 --> 00:36:50,320
yourself

1171
00:36:54,790 --> 00:36:53,680
let's say you you hire an army you hire

1172
00:36:57,030 --> 00:36:54,800
you get weapons

1173
00:36:59,030 --> 00:36:57,040
you put on an armor you do all these

1174
00:37:00,710 --> 00:36:59,040
things you learn to ride a horse you

1175
00:37:02,630 --> 00:37:00,720
have all these things that you add to

1176
00:37:05,829 --> 00:37:02,640
yourself in order to make yourself

1177
00:37:08,069 --> 00:37:05,839
more powerful right and

1178
00:37:09,670 --> 00:37:08,079
the ultimate example of that is the

1179
00:37:12,550 --> 00:37:09,680
ornament

1180
00:37:14,470 --> 00:37:12,560
so we often don't think what a

1181
00:37:16,390 --> 00:37:14,480
metaphysically what an ornament is

1182
00:37:17,510 --> 00:37:16,400
but an ornament is something that you

1183
00:37:20,470 --> 00:37:17,520
add to

1184
00:37:22,230 --> 00:37:20,480
another thing to make it just to make it

1185
00:37:24,310 --> 00:37:22,240
different just to make it special

1186
00:37:27,030 --> 00:37:24,320
right because it has no purpose if i if

1187
00:37:28,870 --> 00:37:27,040
i put a if i paint a flower on a chair

1188
00:37:30,790 --> 00:37:28,880
it doesn't participate in the chair

1189
00:37:31,349 --> 00:37:30,800
nature of the chair doesn't help me sit

1190
00:37:33,190 --> 00:37:31,359
on it

1191
00:37:34,470 --> 00:37:33,200
that's what you know all it does is it

1192
00:37:37,190 --> 00:37:34,480
makes it different from

1193
00:37:37,670 --> 00:37:37,200
others and it's the same for people so

1194
00:37:40,870 --> 00:37:37,680
so

1195
00:37:41,510 --> 00:37:40,880
a woman will wear jewelry a man will

1196
00:37:48,870 --> 00:37:41,520
wear

1197
00:37:50,950 --> 00:37:48,880
in order to to to supplement her beauty

1198
00:37:52,950 --> 00:37:50,960
you could say so a woman wears me to

1199
00:37:55,109 --> 00:37:52,960
supplement her beauty but

1200
00:37:57,510 --> 00:37:55,119
what happens is as the supplement gets

1201
00:37:59,750 --> 00:37:57,520
stronger and stronger

1202
00:38:02,310 --> 00:37:59,760
you the question is are you

1203
00:38:05,270 --> 00:38:02,320
supplementing to show

1204
00:38:06,310 --> 00:38:05,280
right to to call attention to or are you

1205
00:38:08,870 --> 00:38:06,320
supplementing

1206
00:38:10,310 --> 00:38:08,880
in order to hide the true nature of what

1207
00:38:12,710 --> 00:38:10,320
it is that you're supplementing

1208
00:38:13,510 --> 00:38:12,720
right and it it's hard to know when that

1209
00:38:16,390 --> 00:38:13,520
happens

1210
00:38:17,349 --> 00:38:16,400
right it's hard to know when i take a

1211
00:38:19,589 --> 00:38:17,359
hammer

1212
00:38:20,390 --> 00:38:19,599
in order to be able to hit nails and and

1213
00:38:22,310 --> 00:38:20,400
hit them in

1214
00:38:24,069 --> 00:38:22,320
but then at some point the weapon the

1215
00:38:27,109 --> 00:38:24,079
technology becomes so big

1216
00:38:29,349 --> 00:38:27,119
that it it i could never do it

1217
00:38:30,710 --> 00:38:29,359
like it it's actually there to mask my

1218
00:38:33,270 --> 00:38:30,720
capacity to

1219
00:38:35,030 --> 00:38:33,280
to to do with that that actual action

1220
00:38:38,069 --> 00:38:35,040
the same with with makeup you know you

1221
00:38:40,390 --> 00:38:38,079
everybody has seen a woman who at some

1222
00:38:41,109 --> 00:38:40,400
point in her life as she enters her 50s

1223
00:38:44,150 --> 00:38:41,119
or 60s

1224
00:38:45,750 --> 00:38:44,160
she doesn't she doesn't realize what's

1225
00:38:45,990 --> 00:38:45,760
going on and then she starts to wear too

1226
00:38:47,670 --> 00:38:46,000
much

1227
00:38:49,829 --> 00:38:47,680
makeup and then you realize that it's

1228
00:38:53,910 --> 00:38:49,839
actually there to hide her

1229
00:38:56,390 --> 00:38:53,920
her age it's not there to to enhance to

1230
00:38:57,190 --> 00:38:56,400
accentuate exactly okay and so that's

1231
00:39:00,390 --> 00:38:57,200
how

1232
00:39:02,470 --> 00:39:00,400
the ornament makes you invisible is you

1233
00:39:04,069 --> 00:39:02,480
you disappear behind the supplement at

1234
00:39:05,510 --> 00:39:04,079
some point

1235
00:39:07,349 --> 00:39:05,520
so if you if you keep adding those

1236
00:39:09,910 --> 00:39:07,359
layers at some point

1237
00:39:11,030 --> 00:39:09,920
those layers are all that is it's like a

1238
00:39:12,470 --> 00:39:11,040
i see i see so

1239
00:39:14,230 --> 00:39:12,480
okay if you have an empty shell so

1240
00:39:15,270 --> 00:39:14,240
there's technology i'm just gonna

1241
00:39:17,270 --> 00:39:15,280
see if i understand so there's

1242
00:39:19,190 --> 00:39:17,280
technology and use that technology to

1243
00:39:21,589 --> 00:39:19,200
expand what you can do to expand

1244
00:39:22,870 --> 00:39:21,599
your dominion over the world and over

1245
00:39:24,790 --> 00:39:22,880
others yeah

1246
00:39:26,630 --> 00:39:24,800
then you can also think of it in terms

1247
00:39:29,430 --> 00:39:26,640
of makeup as a technology

1248
00:39:31,270 --> 00:39:29,440
buying a big car to signal your

1249
00:39:32,069 --> 00:39:31,280
attractiveness is a technology in the

1250
00:39:33,990 --> 00:39:32,079
sense because

1251
00:39:35,270 --> 00:39:34,000
it's a tool so tool is another word for

1252
00:39:36,710 --> 00:39:35,280
technology right and

1253
00:39:38,870 --> 00:39:36,720
the big car is the great is the great

1254
00:39:40,390 --> 00:39:38,880
example right i mean for a man that's a

1255
00:39:41,109 --> 00:39:40,400
that's a that's a it's a joke that we

1256
00:39:43,589 --> 00:39:41,119
have right

1257
00:39:44,710 --> 00:39:43,599
the guy with the with the sports car you

1258
00:39:47,190 --> 00:39:44,720
know

1259
00:39:48,950 --> 00:39:47,200
is it there to is it there to uh

1260
00:39:50,950 --> 00:39:48,960
actually hide something about him

1261
00:39:52,630 --> 00:39:50,960
something that he's missing some some

1262
00:39:54,470 --> 00:39:52,640
aspect of him which is deficient

1263
00:39:56,630 --> 00:39:54,480
and then he's hiding himself behind his

1264
00:39:57,270 --> 00:39:56,640
big car he's actually hiding the fact

1265
00:39:59,190 --> 00:39:57,280
that he's

1266
00:40:00,310 --> 00:39:59,200
i mean this is like the joke right he's

1267
00:40:02,550 --> 00:40:00,320
hiding himself

1268
00:40:04,630 --> 00:40:02,560
the fact that he's somehow deficient in

1269
00:40:06,230 --> 00:40:04,640
some spheres of his love life

1270
00:40:07,910 --> 00:40:06,240
with this big car so he's

1271
00:40:09,270 --> 00:40:07,920
overcompensating in that manner

1272
00:40:11,270 --> 00:40:09,280
and so that's a way for him to hide he's

1273
00:40:11,670 --> 00:40:11,280
he's hiding himself behind this this

1274
00:40:13,349 --> 00:40:11,680
ring

1275
00:40:14,470 --> 00:40:13,359
how does it work when it comes to armies

1276
00:40:15,270 --> 00:40:14,480
like let's say you're the president of

1277
00:40:17,670 --> 00:40:15,280
the united states

1278
00:40:19,030 --> 00:40:17,680
and you just keep ex you keep pumping

1279
00:40:20,309 --> 00:40:19,040
money into the military

1280
00:40:22,829 --> 00:40:20,319
so you're expanding your range of

1281
00:40:24,790 --> 00:40:22,839
dominion yeah how does that relate to

1282
00:40:26,550 --> 00:40:24,800
hiding um

1283
00:40:27,829 --> 00:40:26,560
let's try to understand it in terms of

1284
00:40:31,190 --> 00:40:27,839
in terms of an army

1285
00:40:33,030 --> 00:40:31,200
um because i understand it in terms of

1286
00:40:35,430 --> 00:40:33,040
masking when it comes to something like

1287
00:40:38,470 --> 00:40:35,440
makeup or the man with the car

1288
00:40:40,230 --> 00:40:38,480
or someone with extremely well

1289
00:40:41,990 --> 00:40:40,240
someone who's extremely well-dressed but

1290
00:40:43,030 --> 00:40:42,000
to the point of not being well to being

1291
00:40:45,430 --> 00:40:43,040
overly dressed

1292
00:40:47,349 --> 00:40:45,440
well i would say i would say we could

1293
00:40:50,710 --> 00:40:47,359
see some examples i think

1294
00:40:55,270 --> 00:40:50,720
in terms of when

1295
00:40:58,309 --> 00:40:55,280
is it that uh let's say

1296
00:41:00,870 --> 00:40:58,319
civilizations become expansive

1297
00:41:01,910 --> 00:41:00,880
um i mean i think a lot of people could

1298
00:41:05,109 --> 00:41:01,920
argue with me

1299
00:41:08,790 --> 00:41:05,119
on on this for sure okay

1300
00:41:12,390 --> 00:41:08,800
but i think that if you look at

1301
00:41:14,390 --> 00:41:12,400
the the uh the expansion of

1302
00:41:16,870 --> 00:41:14,400
the roman empire for example the

1303
00:41:19,829 --> 00:41:16,880
question is why did it expand

1304
00:41:20,710 --> 00:41:19,839
like why why would it expand and one of

1305
00:41:23,109 --> 00:41:20,720
the answers

1306
00:41:24,950 --> 00:41:23,119
could be exactly what i said it could be

1307
00:41:27,750 --> 00:41:24,960
exactly that it is lacking

1308
00:41:29,030 --> 00:41:27,760
within itself what it needs to exist and

1309
00:41:32,390 --> 00:41:29,040
so it has to

1310
00:41:33,270 --> 00:41:32,400
has to eat has to speed up how what what

1311
00:41:35,030 --> 00:41:33,280
it's eating

1312
00:41:38,069 --> 00:41:35,040
on the outside it has to kind of devour

1313
00:41:41,589 --> 00:41:38,079
the outside it and add add add add

1314
00:41:42,309 --> 00:41:41,599
add add to a point where it always feels

1315
00:41:45,430 --> 00:41:42,319
like

1316
00:41:47,270 --> 00:41:45,440
it it's it's um

1317
00:41:48,550 --> 00:41:47,280
it's pushing away the moment where it's

1318
00:41:50,550 --> 00:41:48,560
going to break apart

1319
00:41:52,069 --> 00:41:50,560
by doing that because it's there's

1320
00:41:53,430 --> 00:41:52,079
something in the center

1321
00:41:55,190 --> 00:41:53,440
which is lacking there's some there's

1322
00:41:56,870 --> 00:41:55,200
some inner thing which is lacking

1323
00:41:58,470 --> 00:41:56,880
and you see that i mean i think that we

1324
00:42:00,069 --> 00:41:58,480
see that and we could think about in

1325
00:42:02,790 --> 00:42:00,079
terms of materialism how people

1326
00:42:04,150 --> 00:42:02,800
will start to buy buy buy things because

1327
00:42:06,390 --> 00:42:04,160
there's something lacking

1328
00:42:08,790 --> 00:42:06,400
within themselves and so they do that in

1329
00:42:10,630 --> 00:42:08,800
a way to make them feel like they're

1330
00:42:12,150 --> 00:42:10,640
like they're still growing okay so they

1331
00:42:13,510 --> 00:42:12,160
lack something crucial that will help

1332
00:42:14,309 --> 00:42:13,520
them survive and so they stave off the

1333
00:42:16,470 --> 00:42:14,319
inevitable

1334
00:42:17,750 --> 00:42:16,480
by increasing their imperialistic powers

1335
00:42:19,190 --> 00:42:17,760
that's something that the communists did

1336
00:42:21,109 --> 00:42:19,200
yeah i think so i think that that's a

1337
00:42:24,309 --> 00:42:21,119
good way to understand it in terms of

1338
00:42:24,630 --> 00:42:24,319
of of empires that tend to oh i mean

1339
00:42:26,550 --> 00:42:24,640
that's

1340
00:42:28,069 --> 00:42:26,560
one example because others could just

1341
00:42:29,910 --> 00:42:28,079
simply be greed

1342
00:42:31,430 --> 00:42:29,920
yeah but i think that greed is that

1343
00:42:33,589 --> 00:42:31,440
greed is that too

1344
00:42:34,950 --> 00:42:33,599
i think that this this that's true

1345
00:42:35,510 --> 00:42:34,960
because greed could also be tied to an

1346
00:42:36,550 --> 00:42:35,520
insecurity

1347
00:42:39,270 --> 00:42:36,560
which means you don't have something

1348
00:42:42,870 --> 00:42:39,280
that's right and so that's why the ring

1349
00:42:46,069 --> 00:42:42,880
is related to our desires uh

1350
00:42:48,390 --> 00:42:46,079
this periphery this idea of supplement

1351
00:42:49,510 --> 00:42:48,400
is also related to what the christians

1352
00:42:52,150 --> 00:42:49,520
would call the passions

1353
00:42:53,910 --> 00:42:52,160
so you have these you have these things

1354
00:42:54,950 --> 00:42:53,920
that pull you from the outside desires

1355
00:42:57,670 --> 00:42:54,960
you know

1356
00:42:58,710 --> 00:42:57,680
gluttony uh pride uh sexual desire all

1357
00:43:02,470 --> 00:42:58,720
these things

1358
00:43:04,950 --> 00:43:02,480
and so if if you move in that direction

1359
00:43:05,910 --> 00:43:04,960
usually that's what it is you're devour

1360
00:43:07,910 --> 00:43:05,920
you're eating

1361
00:43:09,589 --> 00:43:07,920
you're you're taking in things you're

1362
00:43:10,630 --> 00:43:09,599
you're acting in certain ways in order

1363
00:43:12,309 --> 00:43:10,640
to compensate

1364
00:43:14,230 --> 00:43:12,319
for something that you're lacking

1365
00:43:15,750 --> 00:43:14,240
interior interiorly

1366
00:43:17,190 --> 00:43:15,760
you know and everybody knows someone who

1367
00:43:18,950 --> 00:43:17,200
does that i mean you can take extreme

1368
00:43:20,230 --> 00:43:18,960
cases of someone that say who drinks

1369
00:43:22,150 --> 00:43:20,240
you know and you know and you know

1370
00:43:23,510 --> 00:43:22,160
someone who who becomes an alcoholic

1371
00:43:25,349 --> 00:43:23,520
he doesn't just become an alcoholic

1372
00:43:27,910 --> 00:43:25,359
because of alcohol

1373
00:43:29,589 --> 00:43:27,920
right usually you become an alcoholic

1374
00:43:31,270 --> 00:43:29,599
you you drink to

1375
00:43:32,790 --> 00:43:31,280
fill up some malaise that you have some

1376
00:43:34,870 --> 00:43:32,800
kind of and everybody has

1377
00:43:36,150 --> 00:43:34,880
that malaise you know we just do we have

1378
00:43:38,550 --> 00:43:36,160
different ways of dealing with it

1379
00:43:40,150 --> 00:43:38,560
but you you can you engage in certain

1380
00:43:41,829 --> 00:43:40,160
supplementary behaviors

1381
00:43:43,750 --> 00:43:41,839
in order to and the supplement because

1382
00:43:45,589 --> 00:43:43,760
the sublime is also medicine

1383
00:43:46,870 --> 00:43:45,599
that's also important and understanding

1384
00:43:50,470 --> 00:43:46,880
this idea of supplement

1385
00:43:53,430 --> 00:43:50,480
is uh it also has to do with

1386
00:43:53,829 --> 00:43:53,440
with the notion of taking in something

1387
00:43:57,510 --> 00:43:53,839
or

1388
00:43:59,349 --> 00:43:57,520
part of this notion of the supplement

1389
00:44:01,190 --> 00:43:59,359
because when you're sick you have to

1390
00:44:03,589 --> 00:44:01,200
take something from the outside

1391
00:44:05,190 --> 00:44:03,599
in order to heal you and it works like

1392
00:44:05,750 --> 00:44:05,200
it can work you know and the supplement

1393
00:44:06,790 --> 00:44:05,760
is not

1394
00:44:08,069 --> 00:44:06,800
there's nothing wrong about the

1395
00:44:09,190 --> 00:44:08,079
supplement there's nothing wrong about

1396
00:44:10,390 --> 00:44:09,200
this process

1397
00:44:12,870 --> 00:44:10,400
it's just that it can become out of

1398
00:44:14,470 --> 00:44:12,880
control you know because you need to eat

1399
00:44:16,470 --> 00:44:14,480
and and there's nothing wrong with with

1400
00:44:17,589 --> 00:44:16,480
sexual activity all those things are

1401
00:44:21,349 --> 00:44:17,599
fine it's just that

1402
00:44:24,069 --> 00:44:21,359
if you fall you can fall into a a

1403
00:44:25,349 --> 00:44:24,079
you can fall into a pattern where that

1404
00:44:28,550 --> 00:44:25,359
behavior or that

1405
00:44:31,030 --> 00:44:28,560
that that desire or or you know the

1406
00:44:32,230 --> 00:44:31,040
alcohol or drugs or whatever it is or

1407
00:44:34,150 --> 00:44:32,240
power or

1408
00:44:35,990 --> 00:44:34,160
all the things that we do or buying cars

1409
00:44:37,589 --> 00:44:36,000
or you know whatever it is that we do to

1410
00:44:39,430 --> 00:44:37,599
supplement our existence

1411
00:44:40,950 --> 00:44:39,440
takes you away from yourself and then

1412
00:44:42,710 --> 00:44:40,960
you lose yourself in that you

1413
00:44:45,030 --> 00:44:42,720
you know you lose yourself in your in

1414
00:44:46,550 --> 00:44:45,040
your desires and you you cease to

1415
00:44:47,829 --> 00:44:46,560
you've lost the heart like you've lost

1416
00:44:48,309 --> 00:44:47,839
the memory of the heart you could call

1417
00:44:49,430 --> 00:44:48,319
it

1418
00:44:51,910 --> 00:44:49,440
how does this relate to the ring

1419
00:44:54,870 --> 00:44:51,920
becoming heavier well i think that

1420
00:44:57,430 --> 00:44:54,880
the ring becomes heavier as if you

1421
00:45:00,630 --> 00:44:57,440
understand it as

1422
00:45:03,270 --> 00:45:00,640
let's say frodo is moving out into that

1423
00:45:04,390 --> 00:45:03,280
chaotic world and so it has to become

1424
00:45:07,430 --> 00:45:04,400
heavier

1425
00:45:08,950 --> 00:45:07,440
in a certain way just like you need to

1426
00:45:09,910 --> 00:45:08,960
add more and more layers the further

1427
00:45:12,309 --> 00:45:09,920
away you get

1428
00:45:13,990 --> 00:45:12,319
from yourself so it's going to be you

1429
00:45:15,990 --> 00:45:14,000
know it's like you have to need a bigger

1430
00:45:17,430 --> 00:45:16,000
bigger gun a bigger sword a bigger you

1431
00:45:19,990 --> 00:45:17,440
know a bigger army a bigger

1432
00:45:20,550 --> 00:45:20,000
house a you know a more technology you

1433
00:45:22,069 --> 00:45:20,560
if you

1434
00:45:23,750 --> 00:45:22,079
going out into space is the ultimate

1435
00:45:26,069 --> 00:45:23,760
example you know like you go out into

1436
00:45:28,230 --> 00:45:26,079
space you need a massive shell

1437
00:45:29,109 --> 00:45:28,240
around you a massive massive shell to

1438
00:45:31,030 --> 00:45:29,119
protect you

1439
00:45:32,309 --> 00:45:31,040
from the outside because the outside

1440
00:45:34,309 --> 00:45:32,319
will kill you um

1441
00:45:35,270 --> 00:45:34,319
and i think that that's what that's

1442
00:45:35,990 --> 00:45:35,280
what's happening in the lord of the

1443
00:45:38,630 --> 00:45:36,000
rings is that

1444
00:45:40,390 --> 00:45:38,640
as frodo is moving away from his home as

1445
00:45:42,150 --> 00:45:40,400
he's moving away from his

1446
00:45:43,990 --> 00:45:42,160
family his identity and all of that and

1447
00:45:47,030 --> 00:45:44,000
he's moving out towards this

1448
00:45:47,910 --> 00:45:47,040
this dark place then his the ring gets

1449
00:45:51,030 --> 00:45:47,920
heavier and it

1450
00:45:51,270 --> 00:45:51,040
takes a toll on him you know at first he

1451
00:45:54,069 --> 00:45:51,280
has

1452
00:45:56,069 --> 00:45:54,079
enough innocence to to bear the ring

1453
00:45:56,710 --> 00:45:56,079
without being completely taken over but

1454
00:45:58,230 --> 00:45:56,720
as he

1455
00:46:00,630 --> 00:45:58,240
moves out and further and further and

1456
00:46:03,349 --> 00:46:00,640
further out then it starts to

1457
00:46:04,870 --> 00:46:03,359
to eat away at him you know and the only

1458
00:46:06,870 --> 00:46:04,880
character in lord of the rings who can

1459
00:46:07,910 --> 00:46:06,880
handle the ring without a problem is is

1460
00:46:09,990 --> 00:46:07,920
tom bombadil

1461
00:46:12,390 --> 00:46:10,000
and that's because he is a

1462
00:46:13,829 --> 00:46:12,400
representation of that natural

1463
00:46:15,589 --> 00:46:13,839
kind of innocence that kind of

1464
00:46:18,870 --> 00:46:15,599
boisterous uh

1465
00:46:20,470 --> 00:46:18,880
self fullness of being you know he

1466
00:46:23,109 --> 00:46:20,480
doesn't he doesn't he he's a

1467
00:46:23,829 --> 00:46:23,119
he's a he has a kind of joyful innocence

1468
00:46:29,990 --> 00:46:23,839
that

1469
00:46:31,910 --> 00:46:30,000
the the the uh the periphery are tempted

1470
00:46:33,750 --> 00:46:31,920
by that a good example is in the movie

1471
00:46:35,990 --> 00:46:33,760
spirited away it's a great example

1472
00:46:37,430 --> 00:46:36,000
where the the central character what is

1473
00:46:40,550 --> 00:46:37,440
her name again

1474
00:46:41,670 --> 00:46:40,560
forget her name anyways the the sen but

1475
00:46:45,430 --> 00:46:41,680
that was what she was given

1476
00:46:46,150 --> 00:46:45,440
yeah well sen yeah she she herself has

1477
00:46:49,430 --> 00:46:46,160
that

1478
00:46:51,750 --> 00:46:49,440
innocence and so when when she's

1479
00:46:52,550 --> 00:46:51,760
she's not in danger the same way that

1480
00:46:56,309 --> 00:46:52,560
others are

1481
00:46:56,950 --> 00:46:56,319
in that world of uh gold and of

1482
00:46:59,430 --> 00:46:56,960
pleasures

1483
00:47:00,390 --> 00:46:59,440
and of uh you know this this this uh

1484
00:47:03,270 --> 00:47:00,400
this house of

1485
00:47:04,710 --> 00:47:03,280
of uh kind of sensuality she's not she's

1486
00:47:05,430 --> 00:47:04,720
not in danger so when the when the

1487
00:47:08,069 --> 00:47:05,440
monster

1488
00:47:09,109 --> 00:47:08,079
when no face presents her with the gold

1489
00:47:11,430 --> 00:47:09,119
she's like

1490
00:47:13,190 --> 00:47:11,440
huh but she'll take it if she needs it

1491
00:47:14,470 --> 00:47:13,200
right and it's fine she's like oh she

1492
00:47:15,910 --> 00:47:14,480
needs she needs the

1493
00:47:17,750 --> 00:47:15,920
she needs something from no face she'll

1494
00:47:19,109 --> 00:47:17,760
she'll take it she's fine but then he's

1495
00:47:20,549 --> 00:47:19,119
like no i want to give you more

1496
00:47:22,390 --> 00:47:20,559
i want you to give me more and she's

1497
00:47:25,190 --> 00:47:22,400
like why would i want more

1498
00:47:26,230 --> 00:47:25,200
i i'm fine i i needed this tool to do

1499
00:47:28,069 --> 00:47:26,240
this and i did it

1500
00:47:29,589 --> 00:47:28,079
and then i'm done and that was because

1501
00:47:30,150 --> 00:47:29,599
she was innocent i think it's because

1502
00:47:33,109 --> 00:47:30,160
she has

1503
00:47:34,870 --> 00:47:33,119
she had a kind of innocence in the right

1504
00:47:37,829 --> 00:47:34,880
way to see innocence a kind of

1505
00:47:38,710 --> 00:47:37,839
purity you could say a kind of lack of

1506
00:47:42,470 --> 00:47:38,720
uh

1507
00:47:44,230 --> 00:47:42,480
self let's say a a

1508
00:47:46,150 --> 00:47:44,240
a joyful purity i would i don't know how

1509
00:47:47,829 --> 00:47:46,160
else to to say it

1510
00:47:49,990 --> 00:47:47,839
we were talking about the little mermaid

1511
00:47:51,270 --> 00:47:50,000
before we started filming

1512
00:47:53,270 --> 00:47:51,280
and i don't know if you had much time to

1513
00:47:55,030 --> 00:47:53,280
think about it before we started filming

1514
00:47:57,589 --> 00:47:55,040
but can you comment on how the little

1515
00:48:02,309 --> 00:48:00,870
has a connection to today right um

1516
00:48:04,150 --> 00:48:02,319
well especially if if you're talking

1517
00:48:05,349 --> 00:48:04,160
about the movie the little mermaid like

1518
00:48:08,790 --> 00:48:05,359
the the disney movie

1519
00:48:10,790 --> 00:48:08,800
um i think it's

1520
00:48:11,829 --> 00:48:10,800
it's interesting because the little

1521
00:48:15,349 --> 00:48:11,839
mermaid

1522
00:48:17,109 --> 00:48:15,359
she it's funny because

1523
00:48:18,710 --> 00:48:17,119
i maybe i need to make a caveat about

1524
00:48:19,990 --> 00:48:18,720
about the little mermaid the first

1525
00:48:21,910 --> 00:48:20,000
little mermaid like the one that was

1526
00:48:25,510 --> 00:48:21,920
written by hans christian andersen

1527
00:48:28,390 --> 00:48:25,520
was really about the incapacity

1528
00:48:29,750 --> 00:48:28,400
to cross over it was it was it was

1529
00:48:33,030 --> 00:48:29,760
really about

1530
00:48:36,230 --> 00:48:33,040
the be happy with what you are

1531
00:48:38,069 --> 00:48:36,240
um because she she dies right she can't

1532
00:48:40,069 --> 00:48:38,079
she can't cross over into the human

1533
00:48:42,950 --> 00:48:40,079
world because

1534
00:48:44,069 --> 00:48:42,960
that's not her place right and so the

1535
00:48:46,950 --> 00:48:44,079
disney version

1536
00:48:48,710 --> 00:48:46,960
is the actual total opposite the disney

1537
00:48:50,150 --> 00:48:48,720
version is the very opposite it is the

1538
00:48:52,150 --> 00:48:50,160
it is the modern like you can be

1539
00:48:54,390 --> 00:48:52,160
whatever you want uh version of that

1540
00:48:55,829 --> 00:48:54,400
uh so it's very it's kind of interesting

1541
00:48:57,030 --> 00:48:55,839
to first of all to think about the

1542
00:48:58,950 --> 00:48:57,040
difference between

1543
00:49:00,470 --> 00:48:58,960
the two worlds the worlds of hans

1544
00:49:01,030 --> 00:49:00,480
christian andersen and and our world

1545
00:49:02,950 --> 00:49:01,040
today

1546
00:49:04,069 --> 00:49:02,960
where we have this idea that you can

1547
00:49:06,630 --> 00:49:04,079
pretty much just

1548
00:49:07,670 --> 00:49:06,640
do whatever you want um but what's

1549
00:49:11,270 --> 00:49:07,680
interesting in

1550
00:49:12,390 --> 00:49:11,280
in the the scene with the the the witch

1551
00:49:14,630 --> 00:49:12,400
what's her name again

1552
00:49:16,150 --> 00:49:14,640
ursula ursula uh yeah what is

1553
00:49:19,349 --> 00:49:16,160
interesting in that scene is that

1554
00:49:20,790 --> 00:49:19,359
ursula is making her feel like she cares

1555
00:49:22,870 --> 00:49:20,800
about her right making her feel like

1556
00:49:24,870 --> 00:49:22,880
she's this poor this poor thing this

1557
00:49:25,510 --> 00:49:24,880
poor victim of her circumstance this

1558
00:49:28,390 --> 00:49:25,520
poor

1559
00:49:30,069 --> 00:49:28,400
uh and she's like i'm going to i can

1560
00:49:31,109 --> 00:49:30,079
offer you what you want i can offer you

1561
00:49:33,750 --> 00:49:31,119
your desire

1562
00:49:34,150 --> 00:49:33,760
but what you have to give me is is your

1563
00:49:37,030 --> 00:49:34,160
voice

1564
00:49:37,910 --> 00:49:37,040
is your self basically um and so in a

1565
00:49:42,069 --> 00:49:37,920
way

1566
00:49:45,829 --> 00:49:42,079
it is

1567
00:49:47,990 --> 00:49:45,839
desire in that sense

1568
00:49:49,030 --> 00:49:48,000
and the problem with that movie is that

1569
00:49:52,069 --> 00:49:49,040
in the end she gets

1570
00:49:53,589 --> 00:49:52,079
her thing that's the problem it's like

1571
00:49:55,750 --> 00:49:53,599
it's that's a bit of that that's more

1572
00:49:57,910 --> 00:49:55,760
complicated but but uh

1573
00:49:59,910 --> 00:49:57,920
but she she's like you need to sacrifice

1574
00:50:03,190 --> 00:49:59,920
your self your logos

1575
00:50:04,470 --> 00:50:03,200
in order to get what you desire you know

1576
00:50:06,150 --> 00:50:04,480
and that's

1577
00:50:08,309 --> 00:50:06,160
that is part of this notion of the

1578
00:50:11,910 --> 00:50:08,319
supplement in a sense is that you

1579
00:50:13,190 --> 00:50:11,920
you if you if you desire this new car

1580
00:50:15,829 --> 00:50:13,200
that's what you really desire

1581
00:50:17,510 --> 00:50:15,839
if you if you desire to to have all

1582
00:50:17,829 --> 00:50:17,520
these sexual experiences if you desire

1583
00:50:19,510 --> 00:50:17,839
to

1584
00:50:20,710 --> 00:50:19,520
have a certain lifestyle and that's like

1585
00:50:21,829 --> 00:50:20,720
that's when you think that that's what

1586
00:50:23,670 --> 00:50:21,839
you are

1587
00:50:24,710 --> 00:50:23,680
that's when you lose your logo that's

1588
00:50:26,549 --> 00:50:24,720
interesting because you can look at it

1589
00:50:27,990 --> 00:50:26,559
from two points of view one is ursula

1590
00:50:30,470 --> 00:50:28,000
which you can think of as the radical

1591
00:50:32,710 --> 00:50:30,480
left enticing people with

1592
00:50:34,549 --> 00:50:32,720
with wish fulfillment i just want your

1593
00:50:36,309 --> 00:50:34,559
voice but then on the other side

1594
00:50:38,069 --> 00:50:36,319
there's the people who are willing to

1595
00:50:41,030 --> 00:50:38,079
give up their voice yeah

1596
00:50:41,670 --> 00:50:41,040
who are willing to to give up their

1597
00:50:43,349 --> 00:50:41,680
theirs

1598
00:50:45,430 --> 00:50:43,359
their logos or their their core their

1599
00:50:48,710 --> 00:50:45,440
heart or whatever in order

1600
00:50:50,870 --> 00:50:48,720
to get something that they desire

1601
00:50:52,790 --> 00:50:50,880
in order to get something that they want

1602
00:50:53,750 --> 00:50:52,800
and i think that that's

1603
00:50:55,030 --> 00:50:53,760
you know and there's something about

1604
00:50:56,630 --> 00:50:55,040
that in the ring too there's something

1605
00:50:57,349 --> 00:50:56,640
about that in the notion of the ring in

1606
00:51:00,309 --> 00:50:57,359
general

1607
00:51:01,510 --> 00:51:00,319
where you know the person who is going

1608
00:51:03,270 --> 00:51:01,520
to bear the ring

1609
00:51:04,710 --> 00:51:03,280
especially someone who who already has a

1610
00:51:06,790 --> 00:51:04,720
purpose that

1611
00:51:08,390 --> 00:51:06,800
that they're they're going to be able to

1612
00:51:09,349 --> 00:51:08,400
accomplish what they want like if they

1613
00:51:11,190 --> 00:51:09,359
have that power

1614
00:51:12,710 --> 00:51:11,200
they'll be able to do that but they kind

1615
00:51:14,309 --> 00:51:12,720
of have to give up

1616
00:51:15,750 --> 00:51:14,319
they have to kind of give up their soul

1617
00:51:17,190 --> 00:51:15,760
to to get it and

1618
00:51:18,790 --> 00:51:17,200
it's a magical all the magical

1619
00:51:20,710 --> 00:51:18,800
transactions in stories are always

1620
00:51:22,470 --> 00:51:20,720
kind of like that it's like you know you

1621
00:51:23,910 --> 00:51:22,480
you get what you want

1622
00:51:27,349 --> 00:51:23,920
but you have to give up something more

1623
00:51:28,950 --> 00:51:27,359
profound in order to to get that and we

1624
00:51:30,630 --> 00:51:28,960
and i think that you see it you see

1625
00:51:31,750 --> 00:51:30,640
people who go through that all the time

1626
00:51:32,309 --> 00:51:31,760
people go through that all the time

1627
00:51:34,870 --> 00:51:32,319
right they

1628
00:51:35,990 --> 00:51:34,880
they the guy who all he wants is to get

1629
00:51:38,069 --> 00:51:36,000
his million dollars

1630
00:51:39,510 --> 00:51:38,079
and then he sacrifices his family he

1631
00:51:40,950 --> 00:51:39,520
sacrifices his relationship with his

1632
00:51:42,230 --> 00:51:40,960
wife he sacrifices

1633
00:51:44,230 --> 00:51:42,240
the things that are actually very

1634
00:51:46,069 --> 00:51:44,240
precious that are really precious

1635
00:51:48,470 --> 00:51:46,079
because they constitute your

1636
00:51:49,430 --> 00:51:48,480
your being in terms of of a communal

1637
00:51:51,829 --> 00:51:49,440
being

1638
00:51:52,549 --> 00:51:51,839
and they do that to get what they want

1639
00:51:54,710 --> 00:51:52,559
and i think that

1640
00:51:57,190 --> 00:51:54,720
in terms of the radical left one of the

1641
00:51:58,950 --> 00:51:57,200
problems that we're seeing is that

1642
00:52:00,950 --> 00:51:58,960
the radical left has been able to

1643
00:52:04,549 --> 00:52:00,960
convince people that they're only

1644
00:52:07,270 --> 00:52:04,559
this one aspect of what they want

1645
00:52:08,309 --> 00:52:07,280
so someone is like i you know i feel

1646
00:52:10,950 --> 00:52:08,319
like i'm

1647
00:52:12,470 --> 00:52:10,960
you know that i either i'm just one

1648
00:52:14,870 --> 00:52:12,480
thing like i'm this one thing and if i

1649
00:52:18,150 --> 00:52:14,880
embrace this one aspect of myself

1650
00:52:20,790 --> 00:52:18,160
i will get power like i'll get some

1651
00:52:21,349 --> 00:52:20,800
political power uh and i think that

1652
00:52:25,589 --> 00:52:21,359
that's

1653
00:52:29,109 --> 00:52:25,599
people like as a

1654
00:52:31,270 --> 00:52:29,119
we're not like i am not just a

1655
00:52:32,230 --> 00:52:31,280
a you know i'm not just a man i'm not

1656
00:52:37,190 --> 00:52:32,240
just a

1657
00:52:39,430 --> 00:52:37,200
was gay i'm not just gay i'm not just

1658
00:52:41,270 --> 00:52:39,440
trans i'm not just whatever and i'm not

1659
00:52:43,990 --> 00:52:41,280
just a european i'm not

1660
00:52:45,990 --> 00:52:44,000
so it's like if you embrace this one

1661
00:52:49,430 --> 00:52:46,000
aspect of yourself then all of a sudden

1662
00:52:51,829 --> 00:52:49,440
it's like but it there's something

1663
00:52:53,670 --> 00:52:51,839
that's how you make a weapon right

1664
00:52:55,510 --> 00:52:53,680
that's what a weapon is a weapon is

1665
00:52:57,030 --> 00:52:55,520
a point it's like i'm going to push

1666
00:52:58,710 --> 00:52:57,040
something into a point then i'm going to

1667
00:53:00,630 --> 00:52:58,720
use it as a weapon

1668
00:53:03,270 --> 00:53:00,640
and that's how you make a weapon but

1669
00:53:05,589 --> 00:53:03,280
that's not the way you make a

1670
00:53:07,270 --> 00:53:05,599
a person right you don't make a person

1671
00:53:09,829 --> 00:53:07,280
by turning a person into

1672
00:53:11,109 --> 00:53:09,839
into a weapon or weaponizing you know

1673
00:53:12,470 --> 00:53:11,119
something about yourself because you

1674
00:53:14,870 --> 00:53:12,480
lose yourself into that

1675
00:53:16,790 --> 00:53:14,880
into in that in that weapon you could

1676
00:53:17,670 --> 00:53:16,800
say and you can do it with all kinds of

1677
00:53:19,270 --> 00:53:17,680
things right you can

1678
00:53:20,390 --> 00:53:19,280
you can you could turn your bitterness

1679
00:53:21,030 --> 00:53:20,400
into that you could become your

1680
00:53:23,829 --> 00:53:21,040
bitterness

1681
00:53:24,710 --> 00:53:23,839
parents you know you hate your parents

1682
00:53:26,309 --> 00:53:24,720
because of what they did

1683
00:53:27,990 --> 00:53:26,319
and your whole life falls into that

1684
00:53:30,309 --> 00:53:28,000
bitterness and you make this nice

1685
00:53:31,829 --> 00:53:30,319
jagged pointy thing where you all you

1686
00:53:33,510 --> 00:53:31,839
exist in is this one

1687
00:53:35,829 --> 00:53:33,520
thing about you which is the way your

1688
00:53:37,190 --> 00:53:35,839
parents treated you and you you you dive

1689
00:53:39,430 --> 00:53:37,200
into that it becomes your

1690
00:53:40,549 --> 00:53:39,440
your spear and you you start slashing at

1691
00:53:42,069 --> 00:53:40,559
the world with it

1692
00:53:44,549 --> 00:53:42,079
and it makes you feel powerful because

1693
00:53:47,430 --> 00:53:44,559
it works it actually does give you power

1694
00:53:48,150 --> 00:53:47,440
but you lose something in in in the in

1695
00:53:51,190 --> 00:53:48,160
the balance

1696
00:53:52,710 --> 00:53:51,200
you lose the capacity to become a full

1697
00:53:56,150 --> 00:53:52,720
person a total

1698
00:53:57,589 --> 00:53:56,160
being i just had a thought about about

1699
00:53:59,670 --> 00:53:57,599
giving up what you have in order to get

1700
00:54:02,710 --> 00:53:59,680
what you want which is ariel

1701
00:54:04,230 --> 00:54:02,720
but nihilists in today's world

1702
00:54:06,309 --> 00:54:04,240
give up what they want in order to keep

1703
00:54:08,150 --> 00:54:06,319
what they have so they don't want

1704
00:54:09,750 --> 00:54:08,160
they'll give up their aspirations like

1705
00:54:11,510 --> 00:54:09,760
forget about marriage even though they

1706
00:54:12,870 --> 00:54:11,520
actually want it forget about

1707
00:54:13,990 --> 00:54:12,880
forget about traditional values even

1708
00:54:14,790 --> 00:54:14,000
though they actually want friends and

1709
00:54:16,549 --> 00:54:14,800
they would like

1710
00:54:18,230 --> 00:54:16,559
maybe a nuclear family or whatever it

1711
00:54:19,670 --> 00:54:18,240
may be in order to retain their

1712
00:54:21,990 --> 00:54:19,680
worldview what they have

1713
00:54:23,190 --> 00:54:22,000
but i think it it has to do also with a

1714
00:54:25,990 --> 00:54:23,200
a kind of uh

1715
00:54:26,950 --> 00:54:26,000
shortening of not what nihilism tends to

1716
00:54:31,510 --> 00:54:26,960
do is it tends to

1717
00:54:34,069 --> 00:54:31,520
shorten the the horizon you could say

1718
00:54:35,670 --> 00:54:34,079
and so the most immediate things we have

1719
00:54:36,710 --> 00:54:35,680
are these desires right those are the

1720
00:54:38,950 --> 00:54:36,720
most immediate

1721
00:54:40,789 --> 00:54:38,960
the idea of wanting a family you have to

1722
00:54:43,109 --> 00:54:40,799
you have to like

1723
00:54:44,390 --> 00:54:43,119
swim over that first wave which is i

1724
00:54:45,910 --> 00:54:44,400
just want to have a beer

1725
00:54:48,470 --> 00:54:45,920
right you have to swim over that in

1726
00:54:50,549 --> 00:54:48,480
order to to get to something which is

1727
00:54:52,069 --> 00:54:50,559
more purposeful and so i think that what

1728
00:54:54,789 --> 00:54:52,079
nihilism does is it

1729
00:54:55,589 --> 00:54:54,799
it opens up the possibility of just

1730
00:54:58,710 --> 00:54:55,599
living in

1731
00:55:00,069 --> 00:54:58,720
more immediate desires uh you know

1732
00:55:01,589 --> 00:55:00,079
playing video games all day or whatever

1733
00:55:02,789 --> 00:55:01,599
it is that you want to do in the

1734
00:55:06,150 --> 00:55:02,799
immediate

1735
00:55:07,750 --> 00:55:06,160
and not feel like you have to to

1736
00:55:10,069 --> 00:55:07,760
to direct yourself towards something

1737
00:55:11,349 --> 00:55:10,079
which is higher um

1738
00:55:13,270 --> 00:55:11,359
and so in that sense i think that that's

1739
00:55:13,910 --> 00:55:13,280
what that's what nihilism tends to do to

1740
00:55:16,309 --> 00:55:13,920
people

1741
00:55:17,270 --> 00:55:16,319
so what do the hostile brothers cain

1742
00:55:18,470 --> 00:55:17,280
enable

1743
00:55:19,990 --> 00:55:18,480
their others which i can't think of

1744
00:55:21,670 --> 00:55:20,000
right now but what do they have to tell

1745
00:55:23,030 --> 00:55:21,680
us about our current situation with

1746
00:55:23,670 --> 00:55:23,040
regards to the radical left or even the

1747
00:55:26,549 --> 00:55:23,680
alt-right

1748
00:55:27,030 --> 00:55:26,559
yeah well i think in terms of i think in

1749
00:55:29,670 --> 00:55:27,040
terms

1750
00:55:30,950 --> 00:55:29,680
of cain and abel i really do i do think

1751
00:55:33,109 --> 00:55:30,960
that jordan peterson

1752
00:55:35,589 --> 00:55:33,119
has hit the nail in the right place in

1753
00:55:35,910 --> 00:55:35,599
terms of that story and how it relates

1754
00:55:39,510 --> 00:55:35,920
to

1755
00:55:41,270 --> 00:55:39,520
think that

1756
00:55:42,630 --> 00:55:41,280
in the story of cain and abel especially

1757
00:55:45,670 --> 00:55:42,640
you see

1758
00:55:48,230 --> 00:55:45,680
uh cain who feels like

1759
00:55:50,309 --> 00:55:48,240
he should have more than what he has and

1760
00:55:50,950 --> 00:55:50,319
it's not just and so it becomes the

1761
00:55:54,069 --> 00:55:50,960
basic

1762
00:55:56,630 --> 00:55:54,079
you could say that it's pride right

1763
00:55:57,270 --> 00:55:56,640
pride is the is the first sin it's the

1764
00:56:00,230 --> 00:55:57,280
first sin in

1765
00:56:00,630 --> 00:56:00,240
pretty much all the whole biblical story

1766
00:56:03,109 --> 00:56:00,640
you know

1767
00:56:04,870 --> 00:56:03,119
the devil sin is pride cain's sin his

1768
00:56:07,510 --> 00:56:04,880
pride adam and eve sin

1769
00:56:08,470 --> 00:56:07,520
is pride as well it's it's the feeling

1770
00:56:11,750 --> 00:56:08,480
that

1771
00:56:12,069 --> 00:56:11,760
i deserve more than what what i should

1772
00:56:13,670 --> 00:56:12,079
have

1773
00:56:15,270 --> 00:56:13,680
and it's always relative to someone else

1774
00:56:16,950 --> 00:56:15,280
because it's not it it's almost

1775
00:56:19,109 --> 00:56:16,960
equivalent to i should have more

1776
00:56:20,230 --> 00:56:19,119
but also you shouldn't have that if i

1777
00:56:21,270 --> 00:56:20,240
don't have that you shouldn't have that

1778
00:56:23,349 --> 00:56:21,280
oh yeah for sure

1779
00:56:24,549 --> 00:56:23,359
no i totally agree and i think that

1780
00:56:28,870 --> 00:56:24,559
that's

1781
00:56:32,549 --> 00:56:28,880
who

1782
00:56:33,750 --> 00:56:32,559
are far on the left uh far on the left

1783
00:56:35,589 --> 00:56:33,760
you could say

1784
00:56:36,789 --> 00:56:35,599
you it doesn't take a long time to

1785
00:56:39,990 --> 00:56:36,799
scratch

1786
00:56:42,549 --> 00:56:40,000
at the fact that what frustrates them

1787
00:56:43,670 --> 00:56:42,559
is not so much that they're poor because

1788
00:56:46,470 --> 00:56:43,680
most of the time at least

1789
00:56:47,190 --> 00:56:46,480
here they're not you know not you know

1790
00:56:49,190 --> 00:56:47,200
there's

1791
00:56:50,470 --> 00:56:49,200
very few people starving in canada i

1792
00:56:51,430 --> 00:56:50,480
mean i'm sure there are but there are

1793
00:56:54,230 --> 00:56:51,440
very few

1794
00:56:56,470 --> 00:56:54,240
um it's usually that they're annoyed to

1795
00:56:58,470 --> 00:56:56,480
think of jeff bezos in his

1796
00:57:00,069 --> 00:56:58,480
you know his huge house and that's what

1797
00:57:02,549 --> 00:57:00,079
that's what annoys them

1798
00:57:04,789 --> 00:57:02,559
um and i think that i mean i'm not

1799
00:57:07,910 --> 00:57:04,799
saying that there isn't something to say

1800
00:57:10,069 --> 00:57:07,920
for the problem of disparity and

1801
00:57:11,270 --> 00:57:10,079
the problem of people of one person

1802
00:57:13,430 --> 00:57:11,280
having too much power

1803
00:57:14,950 --> 00:57:13,440
i think that that's something which is

1804
00:57:15,349 --> 00:57:14,960
important to think about and to talk

1805
00:57:17,910 --> 00:57:15,359
about

1806
00:57:18,950 --> 00:57:17,920
where where certain individuals have so

1807
00:57:20,470 --> 00:57:18,960
much power

1808
00:57:22,630 --> 00:57:20,480
that they'd be actually can become a

1809
00:57:26,630 --> 00:57:22,640
danger to social cohesion

1810
00:57:27,109 --> 00:57:26,640
but but i think that if it's if you look

1811
00:57:29,430 --> 00:57:27,119
at it

1812
00:57:31,190 --> 00:57:29,440
out of resentment in the sense like you

1813
00:57:33,750 --> 00:57:31,200
know why

1814
00:57:34,470 --> 00:57:33,760
why would he why why does he why would

1815
00:57:36,470 --> 00:57:34,480
he get that

1816
00:57:38,309 --> 00:57:36,480
and why why not me you know it's not

1817
00:57:40,470 --> 00:57:38,319
fair that kind of thinking

1818
00:57:42,150 --> 00:57:40,480
i think that doesn't leave the person in

1819
00:57:44,470 --> 00:57:42,160
a in a good situation

1820
00:57:45,510 --> 00:57:44,480
um and we see it in the storm kane of

1821
00:57:48,230 --> 00:57:45,520
course is where he

1822
00:57:49,190 --> 00:57:48,240
ends up killing his brother because

1823
00:57:50,150 --> 00:57:49,200
because he

1824
00:57:52,309 --> 00:57:50,160
and in the story of cain what's

1825
00:57:53,349 --> 00:57:52,319
interesting in that story is that it

1826
00:57:56,950 --> 00:57:53,359
doesn't tell you

1827
00:57:58,549 --> 00:57:56,960
really fascinating because

1828
00:58:00,789 --> 00:57:58,559
later traditions have always tried to

1829
00:58:02,470 --> 00:58:00,799
like to try to guess why

1830
00:58:04,309 --> 00:58:02,480
why is it that cain sacrifice was not

1831
00:58:05,190 --> 00:58:04,319
acceptable to god but in the story

1832
00:58:06,950 --> 00:58:05,200
itself it doesn't say

1833
00:58:09,190 --> 00:58:06,960
it just says cain's sacrifice was not

1834
00:58:12,230 --> 00:58:09,200
acceptable able sacrifice is acceptable

1835
00:58:13,910 --> 00:58:12,240
it's like okay you don't even know why

1836
00:58:15,349 --> 00:58:13,920
and so but it doesn't matter it's like

1837
00:58:16,950 --> 00:58:15,359
that's reality right

1838
00:58:18,710 --> 00:58:16,960
another way to see it is this is these

1839
00:58:21,109 --> 00:58:18,720
are the cards that have been dealt you

1840
00:58:22,390 --> 00:58:21,119
this is it you can't argue with reality

1841
00:58:23,990 --> 00:58:22,400
and so are you going to argue with

1842
00:58:27,510 --> 00:58:24,000
reality are you going to say

1843
00:58:28,069 --> 00:58:27,520
i should have more and and i'm going to

1844
00:58:29,910 --> 00:58:28,079
want

1845
00:58:32,069 --> 00:58:29,920
more so much and i'm willing to blow the

1846
00:58:33,030 --> 00:58:32,079
whole thing up just because i don't have

1847
00:58:36,150 --> 00:58:33,040
what i want

1848
00:58:38,470 --> 00:58:36,160
you know and and i think that

1849
00:58:39,589 --> 00:58:38,480
what you see what you're seeing in the

1850
00:58:41,270 --> 00:58:39,599
especially in the

1851
00:58:43,589 --> 00:58:41,280
in the radical left is you definitely

1852
00:58:45,190 --> 00:58:43,599
see that type of

1853
00:58:47,349 --> 00:58:45,200
that type of thing and you see it too

1854
00:58:49,430 --> 00:58:47,359
like like you said you do see it now

1855
00:58:51,270 --> 00:58:49,440
in the extreme right you're seeing

1856
00:58:53,190 --> 00:58:51,280
similar things as well where

1857
00:58:55,190 --> 00:58:53,200
there there is a nihilism which is

1858
00:58:58,870 --> 00:58:55,200
propping up in the more extreme right

1859
00:59:01,910 --> 00:58:58,880
which is you know basically

1860
00:59:04,230 --> 00:59:01,920
our culture western culture is is over

1861
00:59:05,589 --> 00:59:04,240
so let's just participate in and blowing

1862
00:59:07,109 --> 00:59:05,599
it up like let's just

1863
00:59:08,630 --> 00:59:07,119
let's just run it into the ground you

1864
00:59:10,549 --> 00:59:08,640
know so no one can have it

1865
00:59:11,750 --> 00:59:10,559
uh there's a little bit of that going on

1866
00:59:15,510 --> 00:59:11,760
and it's very disturbing

1867
00:59:18,309 --> 00:59:15,520
to watch so yeah something that

1868
00:59:19,589 --> 00:59:18,319
i always struggle with is the radical

1869
00:59:21,829 --> 00:59:19,599
left-hand side

1870
00:59:23,349 --> 00:59:21,839
there is a there is there is a grain of

1871
00:59:23,990 --> 00:59:23,359
truth more than a grain of truth which

1872
00:59:25,670 --> 00:59:24,000
is that

1873
00:59:27,190 --> 00:59:25,680
we don't all have what we want which

1874
00:59:29,190 --> 00:59:27,200
will never all have what we want but

1875
00:59:30,309 --> 00:59:29,200
there's some basic needs so in in canada

1876
00:59:31,510 --> 00:59:30,319
we all have health care

1877
00:59:33,109 --> 00:59:31,520
so let's just forget but let's say in

1878
00:59:33,589 --> 00:59:33,119
the states so they don't all have health

1879
00:59:36,630 --> 00:59:33,599
care

1880
00:59:38,549 --> 00:59:36,640
they don't all have they all are many

1881
00:59:40,069 --> 00:59:38,559
people are living paycheck to paycheck

1882
00:59:41,670 --> 00:59:40,079
and then they look at someone like jeff

1883
00:59:43,109 --> 00:59:41,680
bezos and they say it's not fair that

1884
00:59:46,789 --> 00:59:43,119
someone should be living

1885
00:59:50,549 --> 00:59:46,799
so insouciantly and free

1886
00:59:52,390 --> 00:59:50,559
while i am just struggling yeah

1887
00:59:54,950 --> 00:59:52,400
okay so there is something to be said

1888
00:59:58,230 --> 00:59:54,960
about not having to struggle

1889
00:59:59,670 --> 00:59:58,240
this much for basic necessities then at

1890
01:00:00,470 --> 00:59:59,680
the same time there is something to be

1891
01:00:03,829 --> 01:00:00,480
said of

1892
01:00:05,270 --> 01:00:03,839
well are you trying to be a champion for

1893
01:00:05,589 --> 01:00:05,280
the cause of people who are struggling

1894
01:00:07,349 --> 01:00:05,599
or

1895
01:00:09,270 --> 01:00:07,359
are you just trying to tear down those

1896
01:00:10,230 --> 01:00:09,280
who have much more than you now there is

1897
01:00:12,069 --> 01:00:10,240
something there is

1898
01:00:14,150 --> 01:00:12,079
also something to be said for again

1899
01:00:16,150 --> 01:00:14,160
tearing down those who have

1900
01:00:18,069 --> 01:00:16,160
disproportionately too much simply

1901
01:00:19,670 --> 01:00:18,079
because we don't want power to

1902
01:00:22,230 --> 01:00:19,680
accumulate in the hands of the few

1903
01:00:24,710 --> 01:00:22,240
and in crony capitalism capitalism

1904
01:00:27,910 --> 01:00:24,720
obviously money translates into politics

1905
01:00:29,829 --> 01:00:27,920
and we don't want that so it's there's i

1906
01:00:33,510 --> 01:00:29,839
see both sides and i'm always struggling

1907
01:00:34,150 --> 01:00:33,520
because i see the benevolent side of the

1908
01:00:36,069 --> 01:00:34,160
radical left

1909
01:00:37,510 --> 01:00:36,079
which is riches which is the benevolent

1910
01:00:40,470 --> 01:00:37,520
side of the left in general

1911
01:00:41,750 --> 01:00:40,480
yeah and then obviously the benevolent

1912
01:00:41,990 --> 01:00:41,760
side of the right comes out as well

1913
01:00:43,430 --> 01:00:42,000
which

1914
01:00:45,190 --> 01:00:43,440
is well we need hierarchies you can't

1915
01:00:46,950 --> 01:00:45,200
just dispense with all hierarchies

1916
01:00:49,030 --> 01:00:46,960
what for what do you what is it that you

1917
01:00:51,109 --> 01:00:49,040
struggle with you struggle with

1918
01:00:52,470 --> 01:00:51,119
so i think that the left the left

1919
01:00:53,589 --> 01:00:52,480
because any attempt to criticize the

1920
01:00:55,270 --> 01:00:53,599
radical left

1921
01:00:56,710 --> 01:00:55,280
they can just say no it's not this claim

1922
01:00:59,670 --> 01:00:56,720
of resentment it's

1923
01:01:01,349 --> 01:00:59,680
that all that nice bona me gracious

1924
01:01:03,190 --> 01:01:01,359
altruistic philanthropic

1925
01:01:04,470 --> 01:01:03,200
aspect all those all those elements that

1926
01:01:05,510 --> 01:01:04,480
you just listed that's that's actually

1927
01:01:07,270 --> 01:01:05,520
our true motivation

1928
01:01:08,710 --> 01:01:07,280
yeah and it's difficult well you can

1929
01:01:10,069 --> 01:01:08,720
look you can take the psychoanalytical

1930
01:01:11,670 --> 01:01:10,079
approach which is something i'm going to

1931
01:01:13,349 --> 01:01:11,680
try to do in the documentary which is

1932
01:01:15,030 --> 01:01:13,359
well what do your behaviors show forget

1933
01:01:15,829 --> 01:01:15,040
about what you say yeah let's see how

1934
01:01:17,750 --> 01:01:15,839
you act

1935
01:01:19,750 --> 01:01:17,760
so are you killing tens of millions of

1936
01:01:21,030 --> 01:01:19,760
people in the in the 1900s

1937
01:01:22,870 --> 01:01:21,040
well obviously they didn't but i'm

1938
01:01:25,510 --> 01:01:22,880
saying the same philosophy

1939
01:01:27,109 --> 01:01:25,520
has and are you clapping when jordan

1940
01:01:30,789 --> 01:01:27,119
peterson is debating slavoy

1941
01:01:32,549 --> 01:01:30,799
jezek z z and

1942
01:01:34,069 --> 01:01:32,559
jordan peterson references bloody

1943
01:01:35,349 --> 01:01:34,079
violent revolution and then the rest and

1944
01:01:37,829 --> 01:01:35,359
then the radical left

1945
01:01:39,430 --> 01:01:37,839
says yeah which happened i don't know if

1946
01:01:41,349 --> 01:01:39,440
you saw i saw i saw the one

1947
01:01:43,670 --> 01:01:41,359
scene where he says he says hierarchies

1948
01:01:46,230 --> 01:01:43,680
are not he says hierarchies are not

1949
01:01:47,510 --> 01:01:46,240
all posited on on violence and

1950
01:01:49,510 --> 01:01:47,520
dispossessing and everything

1951
01:01:51,190 --> 01:01:49,520
and then someone laughs and i thought

1952
01:01:52,549 --> 01:01:51,200
his q his answer was so perfect

1953
01:01:54,150 --> 01:01:52,559
and he said he said well maybe those

1954
01:01:54,710 --> 01:01:54,160
that laugh if that's the way they would

1955
01:01:57,190 --> 01:01:54,720
do it

1956
01:01:58,150 --> 01:01:57,200
and i thought wow jordan that's one of

1957
01:02:00,150 --> 01:01:58,160
those gold moments

1958
01:02:01,990 --> 01:02:00,160
there was another time where he just

1959
01:02:03,430 --> 01:02:02,000
mentioned what would happen is bloody

1960
01:02:06,549 --> 01:02:03,440
violent revolution

1961
01:02:07,829 --> 01:02:06,559
and then the uh yeah

1962
01:02:09,349 --> 01:02:07,839
yeah he didn't know what to say well

1963
01:02:10,390 --> 01:02:09,359
yeah how would you know to say to that

1964
01:02:11,670 --> 01:02:10,400
because

1965
01:02:13,109 --> 01:02:11,680
i mean i think and those people have

1966
01:02:14,470 --> 01:02:13,119
never experienced anything close to

1967
01:02:16,309 --> 01:02:14,480
bloody violent revolution

1968
01:02:18,630 --> 01:02:16,319
like i was so for this documentary i

1969
01:02:22,150 --> 01:02:18,640
started looking at clips

1970
01:02:26,390 --> 01:02:24,470
just the worst some of the worst of what

1971
01:02:27,349 --> 01:02:26,400
humans can do to other humans on a large

1972
01:02:30,150 --> 01:02:27,359
scale

1973
01:02:30,870 --> 01:02:30,160
and and it just it just tears you apart

1974
01:02:33,990 --> 01:02:30,880
man

1975
01:02:35,589 --> 01:02:34,000
like some of them are not that

1976
01:02:37,109 --> 01:02:35,599
visceral because there's black and white

1977
01:02:39,270 --> 01:02:37,119
footage with no sound yeah

1978
01:02:40,549 --> 01:02:39,280
they're still and then some are like the

1979
01:02:42,549 --> 01:02:40,559
what the tamil tigers

1980
01:02:44,230 --> 01:02:42,559
what the singles government did to the

1981
01:02:45,829 --> 01:02:44,240
tamil tigers and then you see

1982
01:02:47,190 --> 01:02:45,839
mothers holding their children and their

1983
01:02:48,950 --> 01:02:47,200
children just screaming because their

1984
01:02:50,309 --> 01:02:48,960
bombs being

1985
01:02:52,230 --> 01:02:50,319
dropped on them ahead and they don't

1986
01:02:54,069 --> 01:02:52,240
know if they're gonna and they die and

1987
01:02:55,270 --> 01:02:54,079
and it's just fear and fear and fear

1988
01:02:55,990 --> 01:02:55,280
breaks your heart and that's what a

1989
01:03:00,470 --> 01:02:56,000
violent

1990
01:03:01,990 --> 01:03:00,480
revolution is like yeah no i think that

1991
01:03:03,910 --> 01:03:02,000
i think especially now you know it's

1992
01:03:04,470 --> 01:03:03,920
it's so i think that's what's difficult

1993
01:03:08,870 --> 01:03:04,480
is that

1994
01:03:12,549 --> 01:03:08,880
you know you can imagine that someone

1995
01:03:14,470 --> 01:03:12,559
in the 19th century just coming out of

1996
01:03:15,990 --> 01:03:14,480
very difficult like let's say different

1997
01:03:17,670 --> 01:03:16,000
very difficult times in russia where

1998
01:03:19,670 --> 01:03:17,680
you're present you're barely eating

1999
01:03:21,270 --> 01:03:19,680
you don't get to eat any meat all the

2000
01:03:21,829 --> 01:03:21,280
aristocrats eat meat you know like that

2001
01:03:25,109 --> 01:03:21,839
kind of

2002
01:03:26,549 --> 01:03:25,119
life where it's very it's very difficult

2003
01:03:29,430 --> 01:03:26,559
and then that you would feel so

2004
01:03:31,510 --> 01:03:29,440
desperate that you would be willing to

2005
01:03:33,270 --> 01:03:31,520
to risk everything you know just to

2006
01:03:36,710 --> 01:03:33,280
topple the whole thing

2007
01:03:38,470 --> 01:03:36,720
uh compared to now which is like

2008
01:03:40,069 --> 01:03:38,480
i mean who are these people like who

2009
01:03:42,630 --> 01:03:40,079
want bloody revolution in our

2010
01:03:43,990 --> 01:03:42,640
in our country the top 1 of anybody

2011
01:03:46,150 --> 01:03:44,000
who's ever lived right

2012
01:03:47,589 --> 01:03:46,160
and i so i don't understand like i don't

2013
01:03:50,549 --> 01:03:47,599
i don't totally understand

2014
01:03:51,750 --> 01:03:50,559
how that and i also don't understand

2015
01:03:54,549 --> 01:03:51,760
this how they define what

2016
01:03:55,270 --> 01:03:54,559
rich is because rich to me always seems

2017
01:03:56,950 --> 01:03:55,280
to be

2018
01:03:58,710 --> 01:03:56,960
defined by them as whoever is richer

2019
01:04:01,829 --> 01:03:58,720
than me exactly no

2020
01:04:04,549 --> 01:04:01,839
no i agree i agree uh yeah

2021
01:04:05,109 --> 01:04:04,559
yeah so what other ancient stories have

2022
01:04:08,069 --> 01:04:05,119
you read

2023
01:04:08,950 --> 01:04:08,079
yeah that apply to this modern time this

2024
01:04:12,710 --> 01:04:08,960
radical life

2025
01:04:16,950 --> 01:04:12,720
alt-right crazy world that we live in

2026
01:04:20,309 --> 01:04:16,960
um i was thinking about that and

2027
01:04:24,309 --> 01:04:20,319
and i don't and i don't i don't totally

2028
01:04:28,309 --> 01:04:27,029
in terms of we seem to be in a very

2029
01:04:30,069 --> 01:04:28,319
unique moment

2030
01:04:31,349 --> 01:04:30,079
because one of the things that's

2031
01:04:31,990 --> 01:04:31,359
happening right now which is which is

2032
01:04:35,349 --> 01:04:32,000
extremely

2033
01:04:37,029 --> 01:04:35,359
unique is that we have these two

2034
01:04:37,750 --> 01:04:37,039
excesses that are growing up at the same

2035
01:04:39,109 --> 01:04:37,760
time

2036
01:04:40,870 --> 01:04:39,119
and i think that that's the one thing

2037
01:04:41,750 --> 01:04:40,880
that people find very difficult to see

2038
01:04:44,309 --> 01:04:41,760
because

2039
01:04:44,870 --> 01:04:44,319
they tend to just see the other excess

2040
01:04:47,589 --> 01:04:44,880
right

2041
01:04:48,549 --> 01:04:47,599
and so for example we we live in a world

2042
01:04:51,670 --> 01:04:48,559
where

2043
01:04:54,309 --> 01:04:51,680
there's more control and more

2044
01:04:55,990 --> 01:04:54,319
calculation of what you're doing than

2045
01:04:56,549 --> 01:04:56,000
ever any other time in the history of

2046
01:04:58,789 --> 01:04:56,559
the world

2047
01:05:00,950 --> 01:04:58,799
right google has everything about you

2048
01:05:03,589 --> 01:05:00,960
right you exist virtually in google's

2049
01:05:05,270 --> 01:05:03,599
uh on some google drive there they know

2050
01:05:06,630 --> 01:05:05,280
everything about you

2051
01:05:08,710 --> 01:05:06,640
know everything you've said everything

2052
01:05:10,069 --> 01:05:08,720
you've thought pretty much they can call

2053
01:05:11,430 --> 01:05:10,079
you from your email you could basically

2054
01:05:12,950 --> 01:05:11,440
call you from your email and your

2055
01:05:14,390 --> 01:05:12,960
your behavior it's not just your emails

2056
01:05:14,710 --> 01:05:14,400
your behavior online what you click here

2057
01:05:16,950 --> 01:05:14,720
which

2058
01:05:17,910 --> 01:05:16,960
they they have these gigantic algorithms

2059
01:05:19,829 --> 01:05:17,920
which calculate

2060
01:05:21,029 --> 01:05:19,839
and they know like where you are what

2061
01:05:22,789 --> 01:05:21,039
you're interested in you know there are

2062
01:05:26,870 --> 01:05:22,799
crazy stories of people who

2063
01:05:29,430 --> 01:05:26,880
who uh you know like a with a girl who

2064
01:05:30,789 --> 01:05:29,440
is looking online for certain things not

2065
01:05:31,910 --> 01:05:30,799
related to pregnancy but they've

2066
01:05:34,390 --> 01:05:31,920
calculated that

2067
01:05:36,069 --> 01:05:34,400
if you look online for certain things

2068
01:05:36,710 --> 01:05:36,079
even if it's not directly related to

2069
01:05:38,150 --> 01:05:36,720
pregnancy

2070
01:05:40,150 --> 01:05:38,160
it probably means you're pregnant and so

2071
01:05:40,549 --> 01:05:40,160
they'll show you ads for pregnancy stuff

2072
01:05:43,589 --> 01:05:40,559
right

2073
01:05:45,430 --> 01:05:43,599
so there's this massive uh data

2074
01:05:46,870 --> 01:05:45,440
control over what we are just in terms

2075
01:05:50,230 --> 01:05:46,880
of laws like

2076
01:05:51,750 --> 01:05:50,240
the modern state no i can't i can't

2077
01:05:52,870 --> 01:05:51,760
build something in my yard i need to get

2078
01:05:55,029 --> 01:05:52,880
permission from my

2079
01:05:57,270 --> 01:05:55,039
town to build anything i want like i

2080
01:05:58,390 --> 01:05:57,280
can't right now we're in the process in

2081
01:06:00,150 --> 01:05:58,400
quebec where

2082
01:06:01,109 --> 01:06:00,160
the government wants to we're

2083
01:06:02,470 --> 01:06:01,119
homeschooling our kids and the

2084
01:06:04,390 --> 01:06:02,480
government wants to

2085
01:06:05,829 --> 01:06:04,400
to force us to take standardized tests

2086
01:06:07,270 --> 01:06:05,839
and they think that's normal like i

2087
01:06:08,309 --> 01:06:07,280
think it's normal that the government

2088
01:06:09,990 --> 01:06:08,319
decides

2089
01:06:10,950 --> 01:06:10,000
what your kids are going to learn we we

2090
01:06:11,910 --> 01:06:10,960
think that's strong we think that the

2091
01:06:13,670 --> 01:06:11,920
government has that

2092
01:06:16,829 --> 01:06:13,680
possibility so we have the most but we

2093
01:06:19,829 --> 01:06:16,839
also have this weird

2094
01:06:20,630 --> 01:06:19,839
carnivalesque crazy world of passions

2095
01:06:23,990 --> 01:06:20,640
where

2096
01:06:26,069 --> 01:06:24,000
people are are

2097
01:06:27,029 --> 01:06:26,079
people are dying from from uh from

2098
01:06:29,109 --> 01:06:27,039
opioids and so

2099
01:06:30,630 --> 01:06:29,119
there's also this other weird world

2100
01:06:32,549 --> 01:06:30,640
that's completely

2101
01:06:33,990 --> 01:06:32,559
chaotic and upside down so we have these

2102
01:06:34,870 --> 01:06:34,000
two things that are kind of growing up

2103
01:06:37,029 --> 01:06:34,880
at the same time

2104
01:06:38,630 --> 01:06:37,039
and so it's almost like this is a very

2105
01:06:42,069 --> 01:06:38,640
unique moment

2106
01:06:44,309 --> 01:06:42,079
in history where the capacity for

2107
01:06:45,430 --> 01:06:44,319
absolute control and the capacity for

2108
01:06:48,549 --> 01:06:45,440
absolute breakdown

2109
01:06:50,549 --> 01:06:48,559
seem to be looking at each other and

2110
01:06:53,190 --> 01:06:50,559
somehow feeding into each other

2111
01:06:53,910 --> 01:06:53,200
so it's very weird i don't know if

2112
01:06:57,910 --> 01:06:53,920
there's a certain

2113
01:07:01,670 --> 01:06:59,510
my brother would probably be better at

2114
01:07:03,910 --> 01:07:01,680
finding at finding a story that shows

2115
01:07:07,029 --> 01:07:03,920
as much the two extremes at the same

2116
01:07:10,309 --> 01:07:08,710
i mean it's possible that maybe the

2117
01:07:13,670 --> 01:07:10,319
closest thing we have

2118
01:07:14,069 --> 01:07:13,680
would be the collapse of of the roman

2119
01:07:19,029 --> 01:07:14,079
empire

2120
01:07:22,549 --> 01:07:19,039
maybe like like the collapse of of uh

2121
01:07:23,029 --> 01:07:22,559
the the the first collapse let's say

2122
01:07:26,630 --> 01:07:23,039
third

2123
01:07:28,470 --> 01:07:26,640
there was this huge gigantic

2124
01:07:31,510 --> 01:07:28,480
bureaucratic state crazy

2125
01:07:31,990 --> 01:07:31,520
but then this these decadent elites that

2126
01:07:35,670 --> 01:07:32,000
were

2127
01:07:37,510 --> 01:07:35,680
and then it's like it just couldn't

2128
01:07:38,950 --> 01:07:37,520
couldn't hold and so it's like it

2129
01:07:40,950 --> 01:07:38,960
collapsed into civil war

2130
01:07:42,549 --> 01:07:40,960
so it seems like maybe that's the

2131
01:07:44,069 --> 01:07:42,559
closest thing that we have to

2132
01:07:45,750 --> 01:07:44,079
understanding kind of where

2133
01:07:47,990 --> 01:07:45,760
we like the symptoms of our society

2134
01:07:51,670 --> 01:07:48,000
seems to be seem to be close to

2135
01:07:52,710 --> 01:07:51,680
let's say that uh that first fall there

2136
01:07:54,470 --> 01:07:52,720
in the in the

2137
01:07:56,069 --> 01:07:54,480
second one reason i'm asking is because

2138
01:07:57,109 --> 01:07:56,079
there's so much wisdom in these old

2139
01:07:59,829 --> 01:07:57,119
stories

2140
01:08:00,870 --> 01:07:59,839
and if we want to if we want to engineer

2141
01:08:02,789 --> 01:08:00,880
a solution to

2142
01:08:04,470 --> 01:08:02,799
our current times it's always good to

2143
01:08:04,870 --> 01:08:04,480
look back and see well what did they do

2144
01:08:06,230 --> 01:08:04,880
then

2145
01:08:07,990 --> 01:08:06,240
yeah you know i don't think there's a

2146
01:08:11,349 --> 01:08:08,000
solution to our current time

2147
01:08:12,390 --> 01:08:11,359
i i i wish i i wish and a lot of people

2148
01:08:13,349 --> 01:08:12,400
you know

2149
01:08:15,670 --> 01:08:13,359
and i think that that's one of the

2150
01:08:17,990 --> 01:08:15,680
reasons why i kind of took on

2151
01:08:19,829 --> 01:08:18,000
jordan's way of seeing things in terms

2152
01:08:21,990 --> 01:08:19,839
of the solution

2153
01:08:23,349 --> 01:08:22,000
a lot of people have criticized me just

2154
01:08:25,030 --> 01:08:23,359
for for kind of coming too close to

2155
01:08:27,030 --> 01:08:25,040
jordan as a christian and

2156
01:08:28,229 --> 01:08:27,040
a lot of people have criticized jordan

2157
01:08:31,189 --> 01:08:28,239
for his

2158
01:08:32,630 --> 01:08:31,199
his individualism you could say and i've

2159
01:08:34,229 --> 01:08:32,640
been thinking about it a lot recently

2160
01:08:35,990 --> 01:08:34,239
and i think that

2161
01:08:38,070 --> 01:08:36,000
i think that jordan's solution is the

2162
01:08:40,229 --> 01:08:38,080
only one right now

2163
01:08:41,510 --> 01:08:40,239
not individualism in the sense of not

2164
01:08:44,309 --> 01:08:41,520
the iron right

2165
01:08:45,349 --> 01:08:44,319
exactly not the around kind of selfish

2166
01:08:48,309 --> 01:08:45,359
individual but

2167
01:08:48,709 --> 01:08:48,319
the notion that the in a world that is

2168
01:08:52,950 --> 01:08:48,719
so

2169
01:08:56,309 --> 01:08:52,960
big

2170
01:08:59,430 --> 01:08:56,319
you know the only thing you can do is

2171
01:09:00,309 --> 01:08:59,440
is become a saint right as much as

2172
01:09:03,269 --> 01:09:00,319
possible

2173
01:09:04,149 --> 01:09:03,279
is to become a just in the world to be

2174
01:09:07,749 --> 01:09:04,159
to be an

2175
01:09:10,390 --> 01:09:07,759
anchor for for people around you

2176
01:09:11,189 --> 01:09:10,400
and so and that means changing yourself

2177
01:09:13,269 --> 01:09:11,199
that means

2178
01:09:14,390 --> 01:09:13,279
uh and i think it is in line with the

2179
01:09:17,269 --> 01:09:14,400
deepest christian

2180
01:09:18,950 --> 01:09:17,279
teaching which is you know take take the

2181
01:09:20,470 --> 01:09:18,960
the beam out of your own eye before

2182
01:09:22,309 --> 01:09:20,480
before removing the straw out of your

2183
01:09:24,309 --> 01:09:22,319
brother's eye and i and there's also

2184
01:09:27,349 --> 01:09:24,319
several citations of saints for example

2185
01:09:29,189 --> 01:09:27,359
saint seraphim of sorrow who said

2186
01:09:31,269 --> 01:09:29,199
acquire the spirit of peace and

2187
01:09:34,709 --> 01:09:31,279
thousands around you will be saved

2188
01:09:38,229 --> 01:09:34,719
and so this notion of becoming something

2189
01:09:40,950 --> 01:09:38,239
rather than trying to

2190
01:09:41,910 --> 01:09:40,960
to to immediately want to to find these

2191
01:09:44,229 --> 01:09:41,920
gigantic

2192
01:09:45,910 --> 01:09:44,239
solutions to the problem because i don't

2193
01:09:48,390 --> 01:09:45,920
i think i think

2194
01:09:50,630 --> 01:09:48,400
i think we're headed for trouble and i

2195
01:09:51,990 --> 01:09:50,640
think that the only

2196
01:09:53,669 --> 01:09:52,000
the only hope is that there will be

2197
01:09:57,189 --> 01:09:53,679
enough

2198
01:10:00,470 --> 01:09:57,199
bastions of civility and and justice

2199
01:10:01,990 --> 01:10:00,480
and and truth to to

2200
01:10:04,149 --> 01:10:02,000
carry us through right to carry us

2201
01:10:06,870 --> 01:10:04,159
through the the the

2202
01:10:07,830 --> 01:10:06,880
the chaos because to be honest i don't

2203
01:10:12,790 --> 01:10:07,840
see

2204
01:10:14,470 --> 01:10:12,800
problems they're too big they're so big

2205
01:10:16,790 --> 01:10:14,480
it's like it's like the ai thing you

2206
01:10:19,110 --> 01:10:16,800
know you have all these people saying

2207
01:10:21,350 --> 01:10:19,120
be careful about ai be careful about ai

2208
01:10:23,189 --> 01:10:21,360
but no one's gonna stop it's just this

2209
01:10:25,430 --> 01:10:23,199
this machine is turning and turning and

2210
01:10:26,790 --> 01:10:25,440
speeding up and we're heading towards it

2211
01:10:28,709 --> 01:10:26,800
everybody knows we're heading towards it

2212
01:10:30,310 --> 01:10:28,719
everybody's afraid everybody knows how

2213
01:10:31,350 --> 01:10:30,320
dangerous it could be but no one can

2214
01:10:37,990 --> 01:10:31,360
stop it

2215
01:10:41,669 --> 01:10:38,000
and so i don't know you know

2216
01:10:42,950 --> 01:10:41,679
i don't i sorry to be a pessimist

2217
01:10:44,870 --> 01:10:42,960
so where do you see it going you just

2218
01:10:48,229 --> 01:10:44,880
see it remaining and then we strengthen

2219
01:10:50,870 --> 01:10:48,239
ourselves as individuals becoming a

2220
01:10:51,430 --> 01:10:50,880
a person that someone can rely on an

2221
01:10:53,590 --> 01:10:51,440
anchor

2222
01:10:54,790 --> 01:10:53,600
i i think that no i think that it has to

2223
01:10:58,470 --> 01:10:54,800
i do think that it has to build

2224
01:11:02,790 --> 01:10:58,480
ground up that for sure and i think

2225
01:11:04,550 --> 01:11:02,800
that we need we need to rediscover

2226
01:11:06,709 --> 01:11:04,560
our center our heart right we need to

2227
01:11:08,950 --> 01:11:06,719
rediscover that and then we also need

2228
01:11:10,550 --> 01:11:08,960
to participate in actual communities and

2229
01:11:12,709 --> 01:11:10,560
that's one of the reasons why

2230
01:11:13,910 --> 01:11:12,719
i i tell people that oh wait you mean to

2231
01:11:15,590 --> 01:11:13,920
say to say that it

2232
01:11:17,189 --> 01:11:15,600
you don't see it going away the problem

2233
01:11:19,030 --> 01:11:17,199
of the extreme writing extreme left

2234
01:11:21,350 --> 01:11:19,040
with some large-scale solution you see

2235
01:11:21,990 --> 01:11:21,360
it as a problem that will be solved from

2236
01:11:48,470 --> 01:11:22,000
a

2237
01:11:51,270 --> 01:11:48,480
existence

2238
01:11:51,990 --> 01:11:51,280
to that extent so the problem is so

2239
01:11:53,590 --> 01:11:52,000
profound

2240
01:11:55,510 --> 01:11:53,600
that no matter what no matter what

2241
01:11:56,229 --> 01:11:55,520
recycling you set up it's not going to

2242
01:12:00,630 --> 01:11:56,239
go away

2243
01:12:02,550 --> 01:12:00,640
transformed people

2244
01:12:04,229 --> 01:12:02,560
and transformed communities but we don't

2245
01:12:05,510 --> 01:12:04,239
like communities we they don't exist

2246
01:12:08,709 --> 01:12:05,520
anymore we don't have

2247
01:12:10,149 --> 01:12:08,719
at least some some do but it's it's very

2248
01:12:11,350 --> 01:12:10,159
difficult we are this is why john

2249
01:12:13,750 --> 01:12:11,360
vervacky dates the

2250
01:12:15,110 --> 01:12:13,760
current meaning crisis he's he says well

2251
01:12:16,709 --> 01:12:15,120
he might say

2252
01:12:18,550 --> 01:12:16,719
because he's complicated man he might

2253
01:12:19,430 --> 01:12:18,560
say that the extreme radical left

2254
01:12:23,189 --> 01:12:19,440
extreme

2255
01:12:24,550 --> 01:12:23,199
deeper meaning crisis and this meaning

2256
01:12:27,110 --> 01:12:24,560
crisis dates back to the year

2257
01:12:28,709 --> 01:12:27,120
1200 yeah for sure i totally agree i

2258
01:12:31,030 --> 01:12:28,719
when he said 12th century i was like

2259
01:12:31,910 --> 01:12:31,040
john you got it that's where it started

2260
01:12:34,630 --> 01:12:31,920
that's where all

2261
01:12:36,149 --> 01:12:34,640
the the west started to to vacillate

2262
01:12:38,709 --> 01:12:36,159
let's say between extremes

2263
01:12:39,830 --> 01:12:38,719
and uh and so it's it's a it's a

2264
01:12:42,229 --> 01:12:39,840
cyclical thing

2265
01:12:43,030 --> 01:12:42,239
it's a story that's too big for us it's

2266
01:12:44,310 --> 01:12:43,040
too big for

2267
01:12:47,430 --> 01:12:44,320
individuals to think that they're going

2268
01:12:50,630 --> 01:12:47,440
to change it but there are ways to exist

2269
01:12:53,030 --> 01:12:50,640
in those times of breakdown

2270
01:12:53,830 --> 01:12:53,040
like there are ways to exist which

2271
01:12:56,709 --> 01:12:53,840
alleviate

2272
01:12:57,189 --> 01:12:56,719
let's say or make you not be a an actor

2273
01:13:00,229 --> 01:12:57,199
in

2274
01:13:01,910 --> 01:13:00,239
the breakdown and henceforth not be an

2275
01:13:05,750 --> 01:13:01,920
actor in your own breakdown

2276
01:13:08,149 --> 01:13:05,760
not not fall and and and live a life

2277
01:13:10,310 --> 01:13:08,159
a dissolute life of of the passions and

2278
01:13:12,229 --> 01:13:10,320
be completely taken up by your desires

2279
01:13:14,070 --> 01:13:12,239
and then wake up on your deathbed and

2280
01:13:14,790 --> 01:13:14,080
it's like okay i have a big house and a

2281
01:13:16,709 --> 01:13:14,800
big car

2282
01:13:18,149 --> 01:13:16,719
but i'm divorced and my kids hate me and

2283
01:13:20,310 --> 01:13:18,159
it's like that's okay

2284
01:13:21,189 --> 01:13:20,320
congratulations you know what did you

2285
01:13:23,830 --> 01:13:21,199
accomplish

2286
01:13:25,110 --> 01:13:23,840
and so one of the reasons why i've

2287
01:13:27,910 --> 01:13:25,120
insisted a lot of people

2288
01:13:29,750 --> 01:13:27,920
sometimes they wonder why i i insist on

2289
01:13:33,350 --> 01:13:29,760
it so much is one of the reasons why i

2290
01:13:36,709 --> 01:13:33,360
keep saying that at least in the west

2291
01:13:38,950 --> 01:13:36,719
we need we need to remember the

2292
01:13:41,590 --> 01:13:38,960
christian story like we need to remember

2293
01:13:42,070 --> 01:13:41,600
the fact what it is that made us

2294
01:13:43,750 --> 01:13:42,080
something

2295
01:13:45,110 --> 01:13:43,760
yeah remember also means understanding

2296
01:13:46,390 --> 01:13:45,120
yeah and part i think

2297
01:13:48,470 --> 01:13:46,400
it it means to a certain extent

2298
01:13:51,030 --> 01:13:48,480
participate in two and so that's why

2299
01:13:51,510 --> 01:13:51,040
it's a vervakian idea yeah but i think

2300
01:13:55,910 --> 01:13:51,520
we

2301
01:13:58,950 --> 01:13:55,920
so john's way of

2302
01:14:00,709 --> 01:13:58,960
of participation is very individualistic

2303
01:14:02,550 --> 01:14:00,719
and so he says i'm a practitioner i

2304
01:14:04,950 --> 01:14:02,560
practice this i practice that you know i

2305
01:14:05,910 --> 01:14:04,960
i practice these different mystical uh

2306
01:14:08,310 --> 01:14:05,920
practices

2307
01:14:09,590 --> 01:14:08,320
and it's like for him it's a way out of

2308
01:14:12,310 --> 01:14:09,600
the meaning crisis

2309
01:14:12,950 --> 01:14:12,320
but it has to it has to come together

2310
01:14:14,470 --> 01:14:12,960
too

2311
01:14:16,310 --> 01:14:14,480
we have to remember that even in

2312
01:14:17,590 --> 01:14:16,320
buddhist in in buddhist teaching

2313
01:14:20,550 --> 01:14:17,600
that you know there's a lack of

2314
01:14:22,630 --> 01:14:20,560
community in john's approach i think so

2315
01:14:24,229 --> 01:14:22,640
i think so and i think the lack of

2316
01:14:28,470 --> 01:14:24,239
community

2317
01:14:29,590 --> 01:14:28,480
is we don't we don't totally decide what

2318
01:14:31,350 --> 01:14:29,600
story we're part of

2319
01:14:33,030 --> 01:14:31,360
i keep telling people that people it's

2320
01:14:34,790 --> 01:14:33,040
difficult for people to fully understand

2321
01:14:37,189 --> 01:14:34,800
it

2322
01:14:38,550 --> 01:14:37,199
my the way that i i view how things are

2323
01:14:41,430 --> 01:14:38,560
going on is i think

2324
01:14:42,709 --> 01:14:41,440
what we're seeing is playing out of in

2325
01:14:44,550 --> 01:14:42,719
the west you know we're seeing a playing

2326
01:14:46,790 --> 01:14:44,560
out of the christian story

2327
01:14:47,990 --> 01:14:46,800
the massive christian story and part of

2328
01:14:50,310 --> 01:14:48,000
that story

2329
01:14:51,270 --> 01:14:50,320
is a breakdown it's there in the story

2330
01:14:52,229 --> 01:14:51,280
you know that's why

2331
01:14:54,630 --> 01:14:52,239
yeah you're the only person that i've

2332
01:14:57,350 --> 01:14:54,640
seen articulate our current crisis

2333
01:14:58,790 --> 01:14:57,360
in this manner that christianity itself

2334
01:15:00,229 --> 01:14:58,800
might have to die in order for it to

2335
01:15:01,830 --> 01:15:00,239
come back and be reborn

2336
01:15:03,189 --> 01:15:01,840
but i think it's it's there in the story

2337
01:15:04,790 --> 01:15:03,199
like it's there it's there it's

2338
01:15:07,110 --> 01:15:04,800
interesting because you're applying

2339
01:15:08,630 --> 01:15:07,120
the narrative to the narrative yeah

2340
01:15:12,310 --> 01:15:08,640
that's how symbolism works

2341
01:15:14,149 --> 01:15:12,320
so symbolism is a is a you know it's a

2342
01:15:15,990 --> 01:15:14,159
embedded structures within themselves

2343
01:15:18,070 --> 01:15:16,000
right it's a uh

2344
01:15:20,070 --> 01:15:18,080
that the archetype is so true that it

2345
01:15:24,229 --> 01:15:20,080
applies to the archetype

2346
01:15:26,950 --> 01:15:24,239
well that it's a it's like a

2347
01:15:28,310 --> 01:15:26,960
yes exactly it that's that's also that's

2348
01:15:28,870 --> 01:15:28,320
what religious stories do in general

2349
01:15:32,149 --> 01:15:28,880
like they

2350
01:15:33,189 --> 01:15:32,159
they're they they understand how

2351
01:15:35,030 --> 01:15:33,199
they understand a form of

2352
01:15:36,390 --> 01:15:35,040
self-consciousness they have a form of

2353
01:15:38,470 --> 01:15:36,400
self-consciousness where

2354
01:15:39,430 --> 01:15:38,480
they they try to look at themselves as

2355
01:15:41,350 --> 01:15:39,440
well there's a

2356
01:15:42,709 --> 01:15:41,360
weird circularity that's part of the of

2357
01:15:43,430 --> 01:15:42,719
the symbolic structure i find that i

2358
01:15:44,709 --> 01:15:43,440
find that

2359
01:15:46,550 --> 01:15:44,719
fascinating i need to think about that

2360
01:15:48,070 --> 01:15:46,560
some more because it's an interesting

2361
01:15:50,550 --> 01:15:48,080
idea i haven't heard someone else

2362
01:15:52,470 --> 01:15:50,560
express it at least not articulate in

2363
01:15:54,550 --> 01:15:52,480
the in the direct manner that you have

2364
01:15:55,590 --> 01:15:54,560
yeah so how did you start to come to

2365
01:15:57,270 --> 01:15:55,600
view stories

2366
01:15:59,590 --> 01:15:57,280
in this symbolic fashion so you're

2367
01:16:01,110 --> 01:15:59,600
saying you're 22 or you just graduated

2368
01:16:04,070 --> 01:16:01,120
from college and your teacher was

2369
01:16:06,390 --> 01:16:04,080
telling you you don't belong here yeah

2370
01:16:07,990 --> 01:16:06,400
you're a traditionalist the questions

2371
01:16:09,990 --> 01:16:08,000
you're asking are

2372
01:16:11,270 --> 01:16:10,000
are not ones that you'll find the answer

2373
01:16:13,430 --> 01:16:11,280
to not in college

2374
01:16:15,350 --> 01:16:13,440
yeah well so what what what basically

2375
01:16:17,030 --> 01:16:15,360
happened is i

2376
01:16:18,790 --> 01:16:17,040
i tried to make contemporary art for a

2377
01:16:19,830 --> 01:16:18,800
little while i had a studio with some

2378
01:16:21,110 --> 01:16:19,840
friends and you know i was kind of

2379
01:16:22,709 --> 01:16:21,120
working towards something and then just

2380
01:16:24,470 --> 01:16:22,719
for freelance just for some money well

2381
01:16:25,750 --> 01:16:24,480
i hope like a real artist like going to

2382
01:16:27,990 --> 01:16:25,760
a gallery and do

2383
01:16:29,990 --> 01:16:28,000
do do the real artist thing you know i

2384
01:16:33,910 --> 01:16:30,000
made these giant you know kind of

2385
01:16:35,270 --> 01:16:33,920
really ego ego driven giant giant uh

2386
01:16:36,950 --> 01:16:35,280
works of art you know my whole life is

2387
01:16:38,229 --> 01:16:36,960
just one big giant ego-driven work of

2388
01:16:40,070 --> 01:16:38,239
art

2389
01:16:41,270 --> 01:16:40,080
so anyway so that's what i had and then

2390
01:16:43,990 --> 01:16:41,280
i i

2391
01:16:44,470 --> 01:16:44,000
uh i got married and marriage really

2392
01:16:47,030 --> 01:16:44,480
kind of

2393
01:16:48,630 --> 01:16:47,040
slammed me against myself like i saw all

2394
01:16:51,030 --> 01:16:48,640
my own

2395
01:16:52,550 --> 01:16:51,040
flaws flowers insecurities and passions

2396
01:16:54,550 --> 01:16:52,560
and and uh

2397
01:16:56,070 --> 01:16:54,560
unreasonableness and all that just kind

2398
01:16:57,030 --> 01:16:56,080
of came flying back can you explain how

2399
01:16:58,630 --> 01:16:57,040
that happens

2400
01:16:59,990 --> 01:16:58,640
because i recently got married and so i

2401
01:17:00,470 --> 01:17:00,000
want to know i want to know what's the

2402
01:17:04,149 --> 01:17:00,480
story from

2403
01:17:05,910 --> 01:17:04,159
it depends on people some people

2404
01:17:07,350 --> 01:17:05,920
some people get married and then it's

2405
01:17:09,110 --> 01:17:07,360
wonderful for a little while and then it

2406
01:17:11,270 --> 01:17:09,120
then then the mirror starts to

2407
01:17:12,709 --> 01:17:11,280
show um for me it was the opposite like

2408
01:17:13,830 --> 01:17:12,719
we got married like a week after we got

2409
01:17:16,070 --> 01:17:13,840
married all of a sudden

2410
01:17:17,030 --> 01:17:16,080
it was like could you see both of us

2411
01:17:19,110 --> 01:17:17,040
could just see

2412
01:17:20,790 --> 01:17:19,120
so our first year marriage was hell like

2413
01:17:21,830 --> 01:17:20,800
it was it was the opposite of most

2414
01:17:23,990 --> 01:17:21,840
people oh yeah it was

2415
01:17:25,430 --> 01:17:24,000
absolute hell like we once we got

2416
01:17:27,830 --> 01:17:25,440
through the first year of marriage

2417
01:17:28,709 --> 01:17:27,840
we were like huh you can never get worse

2418
01:17:31,990 --> 01:17:28,719
than that so

2419
01:17:33,270 --> 01:17:32,000
it's pretty good let's keep going and so

2420
01:17:33,910 --> 01:17:33,280
so i mean it depends on people that's

2421
01:17:37,030 --> 01:17:33,920
how it was for us

2422
01:17:39,510 --> 01:17:37,040
did you live together beforehand no no

2423
01:17:41,270 --> 01:17:39,520
um and so so it was like this just

2424
01:17:42,630 --> 01:17:41,280
seeing this mirror and so it led me to a

2425
01:17:44,390 --> 01:17:42,640
lot of questioning and

2426
01:17:46,229 --> 01:17:44,400
and uh and also just kind of spiritual

2427
01:17:47,750 --> 01:17:46,239
crisis in general i was also becoming

2428
01:17:49,910 --> 01:17:47,760
very disillusioned with

2429
01:17:51,830 --> 01:17:49,920
the world the kind of evangelical world

2430
01:17:52,310 --> 01:17:51,840
that i was in in college i'd read a lot

2431
01:17:56,790 --> 01:17:52,320
of

2432
01:17:59,990 --> 01:17:56,800
i just felt like the church where i was

2433
01:18:01,830 --> 01:18:00,000
going wasn't just wasn't answering the

2434
01:18:03,270 --> 01:18:01,840
questions what kind of church was it

2435
01:18:06,070 --> 01:18:03,280
this is kind of a baptist

2436
01:18:06,870 --> 01:18:06,080
baptist evangelical baptist church kind

2437
01:18:10,070 --> 01:18:06,880
of american

2438
01:18:11,030 --> 01:18:10,080
style church there uh not liturgical you

2439
01:18:12,229 --> 01:18:11,040
know just very

2440
01:18:13,189 --> 01:18:12,239
kind of looks like a business meeting

2441
01:18:14,470 --> 01:18:13,199
can you explain what you mean when you

2442
01:18:16,950 --> 01:18:14,480
say liturgical do you mean

2443
01:18:18,070 --> 01:18:16,960
to say what it studies the bible no

2444
01:18:21,189 --> 01:18:18,080
liturgical means

2445
01:18:23,750 --> 01:18:21,199
that it's that it has a service which is

2446
01:18:27,830 --> 01:18:23,760
which is a pattern right it's it's based

2447
01:18:30,470 --> 01:18:27,840
on it's not just a

2448
01:18:31,270 --> 01:18:30,480
so like let's say a evangelical church

2449
01:18:34,070 --> 01:18:31,280
today

2450
01:18:36,390 --> 01:18:34,080
they'll get together they'll sing songs

2451
01:18:37,830 --> 01:18:36,400
and uh they'll have a sermon

2452
01:18:39,350 --> 01:18:37,840
but they'll say things like we could do

2453
01:18:40,070 --> 01:18:39,360
it we could do whatever like we you know

2454
01:18:43,030 --> 01:18:40,080
there's no

2455
01:18:43,990 --> 01:18:43,040
structure or you mean no structures for

2456
01:18:45,110 --> 01:18:44,000
your life or no structure for the

2457
01:18:46,470 --> 01:18:45,120
structure for the meetings right

2458
01:18:48,149 --> 01:18:46,480
instruction for the church

2459
01:18:50,550 --> 01:18:48,159
and so liturgical means that there's an

2460
01:18:52,310 --> 01:18:50,560
order of service and so there's

2461
01:18:53,590 --> 01:18:52,320
we we do things in a certain order like

2462
01:18:54,790 --> 01:18:53,600
the jehovah's witnesses i don't know if

2463
01:18:58,550 --> 01:18:54,800
you're familiar with them

2464
01:19:00,470 --> 01:18:58,560
yeah well they're not surgical okay

2465
01:19:02,390 --> 01:19:00,480
they're more like more like the even

2466
01:19:04,390 --> 01:19:02,400
evangelical baptists

2467
01:19:05,910 --> 01:19:04,400
yeah so liturgical is like anglican

2468
01:19:08,310 --> 01:19:05,920
catholics orthodox

2469
01:19:09,430 --> 01:19:08,320
they're liturgical so they sing they

2470
01:19:11,830 --> 01:19:09,440
they they have a

2471
01:19:12,550 --> 01:19:11,840
the building the the the architecture of

2472
01:19:14,870 --> 01:19:12,560
the building

2473
01:19:16,390 --> 01:19:14,880
is meaningful the order of the service

2474
01:19:18,390 --> 01:19:16,400
is meaningful the way the

2475
01:19:20,550 --> 01:19:18,400
the priest is dressed is meaningful

2476
01:19:21,510 --> 01:19:20,560
everything is is done in a manner which

2477
01:19:24,950 --> 01:19:21,520
is meaningful

2478
01:19:26,470 --> 01:19:24,960
and which is uh which which manifests

2479
01:19:30,149 --> 01:19:26,480
what you're trying to do right

2480
01:19:31,990 --> 01:19:30,159
so it's not just it's not just arbitrary

2481
01:19:33,830 --> 01:19:32,000
so so anyway so i wasn't so i was going

2482
01:19:36,630 --> 01:19:33,840
to a kind of evangelical church

2483
01:19:37,110 --> 01:19:36,640
and um i felt like it was just lacking

2484
01:19:40,470 --> 01:19:37,120
in

2485
01:19:42,229 --> 01:19:40,480
and also

2486
01:19:43,990 --> 01:19:42,239
you know i was reading philosophers and

2487
01:19:45,590 --> 01:19:44,000
then i started reading

2488
01:19:47,189 --> 01:19:45,600
authors from other traditions buddhist

2489
01:19:49,990 --> 01:19:47,199
authors sufi authors

2490
01:19:51,750 --> 01:19:50,000
and i discovered mystical the mystical

2491
01:19:54,229 --> 01:19:51,760
way you could say the mis-mystical

2492
01:19:54,790 --> 01:19:54,239
thinking and uh transformational

2493
01:19:57,669 --> 01:19:54,800
thinking

2494
01:19:58,950 --> 01:19:57,679
you could call it and uh i was really

2495
01:20:01,590 --> 01:19:58,960
impressed

2496
01:20:03,270 --> 01:20:01,600
by it and then i thought whoa i would

2497
01:20:04,950 --> 01:20:03,280
say why is it that christians don't have

2498
01:20:06,550 --> 01:20:04,960
that like why is it that christians

2499
01:20:08,870 --> 01:20:06,560
don't have the mystical

2500
01:20:09,590 --> 01:20:08,880
mystical transformations and mystical

2501
01:20:11,430 --> 01:20:09,600
vision of

2502
01:20:13,430 --> 01:20:11,440
how the world works and and all of that

2503
01:20:15,590 --> 01:20:13,440
and and it was only because

2504
01:20:17,750 --> 01:20:15,600
it did it just i didn't know about it

2505
01:20:20,470 --> 01:20:17,760
and then i that's when i discovered

2506
01:20:21,830 --> 01:20:20,480
the early church fathers and traditional

2507
01:20:24,790 --> 01:20:21,840
christianity

2508
01:20:25,830 --> 01:20:24,800
and then iconography so can you define

2509
01:20:28,149 --> 01:20:25,840
what iconography is

2510
01:20:29,830 --> 01:20:28,159
so iconography would be let's say a way

2511
01:20:32,790 --> 01:20:29,840
of practicing art which

2512
01:20:33,830 --> 01:20:32,800
is traditional in the sense that it has

2513
01:20:37,350 --> 01:20:33,840
certain

2514
01:20:39,270 --> 01:20:37,360
rules

2515
01:20:40,790 --> 01:20:39,280
um kind of like if you write a sonata

2516
01:20:43,189 --> 01:20:40,800
right you have certain rules

2517
01:20:44,070 --> 01:20:43,199
and then you you write within those

2518
01:20:47,830 --> 01:20:44,080
rules so

2519
01:20:49,030 --> 01:20:47,840
iconography is the visual practice of

2520
01:20:50,870 --> 01:20:49,040
the ancient church

2521
01:20:52,870 --> 01:20:50,880
which was developed let's say if you

2522
01:20:54,550 --> 01:20:52,880
went into a church in the year 1000 or

2523
01:20:55,750 --> 01:20:54,560
1100

2524
01:20:58,070 --> 01:20:55,760
anywhere in the world you would have

2525
01:21:01,030 --> 01:20:58,080
seen pretty much the same thing

2526
01:21:02,550 --> 01:21:01,040
and that was done without a top-down a

2527
01:21:03,430 --> 01:21:02,560
you know imposition of what was going to

2528
01:21:04,709 --> 01:21:03,440
be there but it was

2529
01:21:06,790 --> 01:21:04,719
just this kind of bubbling was like the

2530
01:21:09,669 --> 01:21:06,800
brand style guide for the church

2531
01:21:11,189 --> 01:21:09,679
the what you know my brand styles okay

2532
01:21:12,950 --> 01:21:11,199
so when you design a website or

2533
01:21:14,629 --> 01:21:12,960
or you have a company like use these

2534
01:21:16,390 --> 01:21:14,639
fonts use these colors make sure that

2535
01:21:18,310 --> 01:21:16,400
when you place the logo you place it

2536
01:21:20,149 --> 01:21:18,320
this much of a distance between the the

2537
01:21:21,510 --> 01:21:20,159
borders well i don't think no i don't

2538
01:21:22,950 --> 01:21:21,520
think that's the way to see it the way

2539
01:21:27,189 --> 01:21:22,960
to see it is to see it

2540
01:21:30,390 --> 01:21:27,199
more like a

2541
01:21:33,750 --> 01:21:30,400
a vision a view of the world

2542
01:21:37,110 --> 01:21:33,760
as full of meaning and full of pattern

2543
01:21:39,350 --> 01:21:37,120
and so the story of the world and the

2544
01:21:41,750 --> 01:21:39,360
story of our lives is a pattern

2545
01:21:42,470 --> 01:21:41,760
it's not arbitrary it's not random and

2546
01:21:45,910 --> 01:21:42,480
so

2547
01:21:46,790 --> 01:21:45,920
that pattern then can be found let's say

2548
01:21:49,270 --> 01:21:46,800
in scripture

2549
01:21:50,550 --> 01:21:49,280
can be found and then it it transposes

2550
01:21:53,430 --> 01:21:50,560
itself into

2551
01:21:55,350 --> 01:21:53,440
the way that we worship let's say so the

2552
01:21:57,750 --> 01:21:55,360
structure of how we worship

2553
01:21:58,870 --> 01:21:57,760
in a church in a traditional church is

2554
01:22:01,110 --> 01:21:58,880
patterned

2555
01:22:02,390 --> 01:22:01,120
based on the same patterns as that you

2556
01:22:04,629 --> 01:22:02,400
find in the in the bible

2557
01:22:05,669 --> 01:22:04,639
so there's a center right there's the

2558
01:22:07,990 --> 01:22:05,679
the altar

2559
01:22:09,830 --> 01:22:08,000
and then that's the most holy place and

2560
01:22:10,790 --> 01:22:09,840
then you can imagine a series of layers

2561
01:22:12,470 --> 01:22:10,800
as you move out

2562
01:22:14,149 --> 01:22:12,480
from that holy place remember when i

2563
01:22:16,470 --> 01:22:14,159
told you a little bit about this idea of

2564
01:22:18,709 --> 01:22:16,480
adding layers well you can see that also

2565
01:22:21,189 --> 01:22:18,719
in the terms of sacred space where

2566
01:22:21,910 --> 01:22:21,199
you have profane space which is outside

2567
01:22:24,950 --> 01:22:21,920
the church

2568
01:22:30,790 --> 01:22:24,960
you

2569
01:22:32,629 --> 01:22:30,800
which is that which defines the space

2570
01:22:34,550 --> 01:22:32,639
itself and which defines the community

2571
01:22:36,070 --> 01:22:34,560
which defines everything so that

2572
01:22:36,709 --> 01:22:36,080
structure let's say the architecture of

2573
01:22:39,030 --> 01:22:36,719
a church

2574
01:22:40,229 --> 01:22:39,040
then in iconography you have those same

2575
01:22:43,270 --> 01:22:40,239
types of structures

2576
01:22:47,110 --> 01:22:43,280
so you have to know the the types

2577
01:22:48,950 --> 01:22:47,120
it's like you have to understand that

2578
01:22:50,149 --> 01:22:48,960
the reason why christ is represented in

2579
01:22:52,790 --> 01:22:50,159
a certain way

2580
01:22:53,270 --> 01:22:52,800
is not arbitrary it's there to show you

2581
01:22:55,669 --> 01:22:53,280
what

2582
01:22:57,350 --> 01:22:55,679
who christ is and so there's a certain

2583
01:23:00,310 --> 01:22:57,360
manner in which you represent

2584
01:23:02,310 --> 01:23:00,320
a figure to show you who what they are

2585
01:23:03,990 --> 01:23:02,320
and what their place is in this bigger

2586
01:23:05,510 --> 01:23:04,000
pattern did they do this consciously

2587
01:23:07,750 --> 01:23:05,520
like they knew that

2588
01:23:09,110 --> 01:23:07,760
they were not copying or imitating but

2589
01:23:10,870 --> 01:23:09,120
that if this

2590
01:23:12,229 --> 01:23:10,880
specific representation of christ was

2591
01:23:13,510 --> 01:23:12,239
being repeated in

2592
01:23:16,390 --> 01:23:13,520
other parts of the world did they know

2593
01:23:18,709 --> 01:23:16,400
that consciously that here's

2594
01:23:19,830 --> 01:23:18,719
the proper representation of christ or

2595
01:23:21,830 --> 01:23:19,840
here's what it's saying we're

2596
01:23:23,270 --> 01:23:21,840
we're at the center because this is

2597
01:23:23,750 --> 01:23:23,280
what's most holy and then here's what's

2598
01:23:25,270 --> 01:23:23,760
profane

2599
01:23:26,790 --> 01:23:25,280
in the way that you're articulating it

2600
01:23:28,470 --> 01:23:26,800
yeah but i think as a mix i think it's a

2601
01:23:30,470 --> 01:23:28,480
mix of intuition

2602
01:23:32,149 --> 01:23:30,480
and participation in the life of a

2603
01:23:33,590 --> 01:23:32,159
community where we agree on

2604
01:23:35,270 --> 01:23:33,600
certain things and we participate in the

2605
01:23:36,390 --> 01:23:35,280
story and so for example like if you

2606
01:23:39,430 --> 01:23:36,400
would ask me

2607
01:23:40,950 --> 01:23:39,440
would it be conscious to put christ in a

2608
01:23:42,709 --> 01:23:40,960
central space

2609
01:23:44,070 --> 01:23:42,719
and you would say well yeah but at the

2610
01:23:44,629 --> 01:23:44,080
same time what else are you gonna put

2611
01:23:46,229 --> 01:23:44,639
there

2612
01:23:47,750 --> 01:23:46,239
because that's the center that's the

2613
01:23:48,790 --> 01:23:47,760
incarnation that's the point where

2614
01:23:51,830 --> 01:23:48,800
heaven and earth meet

2615
01:23:54,149 --> 01:23:51,840
that's the that's the the focus of

2616
01:23:55,750 --> 01:23:54,159
of the the origin of christianity the

2617
01:23:57,110 --> 01:23:55,760
focus of christianity so it's like

2618
01:23:58,950 --> 01:23:57,120
where else would you put him there's

2619
01:24:00,149 --> 01:23:58,960
another reason for the cross something

2620
01:24:02,229 --> 01:24:00,159
i've been thinking about another

2621
01:24:03,430 --> 01:24:02,239
reason for the cross to be symbolized

2622
01:24:05,270 --> 01:24:03,440
like this is because

2623
01:24:07,270 --> 01:24:05,280
this represents the spiritual and this

2624
01:24:07,910 --> 01:24:07,280
represents the profane the mundane

2625
01:24:10,550 --> 01:24:07,920
earthly

2626
01:24:10,950 --> 01:24:10,560
and the proper places to be at both but

2627
01:24:12,790 --> 01:24:10,960
then

2628
01:24:13,990 --> 01:24:12,800
the other reason why the earthly is a

2629
01:24:15,430 --> 01:24:14,000
little bit higher is because it's more

2630
01:24:16,070 --> 01:24:15,440
important to be slightly more spiritual

2631
01:24:18,629 --> 01:24:16,080
than you are

2632
01:24:19,830 --> 01:24:18,639
earthly i mean yeah i've never thought

2633
01:24:21,750 --> 01:24:19,840
about the second part that you said for

2634
01:24:23,750 --> 01:24:21,760
sure the cross the cross

2635
01:24:25,510 --> 01:24:23,760
is meant to represent the union of

2636
01:24:27,430 --> 01:24:25,520
heaven and earth that's for sure

2637
01:24:28,709 --> 01:24:27,440
um and i think that a lot of people

2638
01:24:29,510 --> 01:24:28,719
resist that because they say no that's

2639
01:24:31,830 --> 01:24:29,520
the shape of a

2640
01:24:32,550 --> 01:24:31,840
actual cross right that's how it crosses

2641
01:24:34,070 --> 01:24:32,560
multiple meanings

2642
01:24:35,910 --> 01:24:34,080
but it's like that's the thing is that

2643
01:24:38,070 --> 01:24:35,920
symbolism is not uh

2644
01:24:39,990 --> 01:24:38,080
symbolism is the coalescence of things

2645
01:24:41,910 --> 01:24:40,000
it's not a it's not a

2646
01:24:43,510 --> 01:24:41,920
just because it's a it's that's how

2647
01:24:45,590 --> 01:24:43,520
crosses were made doesn't mean

2648
01:24:47,189 --> 01:24:45,600
that it doesn't also mean that

2649
01:24:48,070 --> 01:24:47,199
especially in this context that doesn't

2650
01:24:49,350 --> 01:24:48,080
come to mean that

2651
01:24:51,030 --> 01:24:49,360
and there's also a preponderance of

2652
01:24:52,790 --> 01:24:51,040
things that are associated with christ

2653
01:24:53,270 --> 01:24:52,800
and why would we choose the cross well

2654
01:24:55,350 --> 01:24:53,280
there's

2655
01:24:56,470 --> 01:24:55,360
obviously obvious reasons why we would

2656
01:24:59,990 --> 01:24:56,480
choose the cross

2657
01:25:01,830 --> 01:25:00,000
but the cross as a symbol means

2658
01:25:03,110 --> 01:25:01,840
it has multiple meanings yeah and it

2659
01:25:03,669 --> 01:25:03,120
does it definitely is a center that's

2660
01:25:05,110 --> 01:25:03,679
for sure

2661
01:25:07,189 --> 01:25:05,120
and and if you look at the early church

2662
01:25:08,950 --> 01:25:07,199
fathers they'll say things like

2663
01:25:10,550 --> 01:25:08,960
you know the cross is everywhere you

2664
01:25:13,350 --> 01:25:10,560
know look at the

2665
01:25:14,149 --> 01:25:13,360
boat amassed you know a mast of a boat

2666
01:25:16,390 --> 01:25:14,159
with the sail

2667
01:25:19,110 --> 01:25:16,400
that's a cross and they'll they'll point

2668
01:25:21,590 --> 01:25:19,120
to crosses which exists almost naturally

2669
01:25:23,030 --> 01:25:21,600
in the world and say this is the you

2670
01:25:23,669 --> 01:25:23,040
know the image of the cross has been

2671
01:25:26,229 --> 01:25:23,679
shown

2672
01:25:28,149 --> 01:25:26,239
forever you know we people need to just

2673
01:25:29,910 --> 01:25:28,159
recognize what it's talking about like

2674
01:25:31,350 --> 01:25:29,920
what is this center what what's at the

2675
01:25:32,950 --> 01:25:31,360
center actually like what

2676
01:25:34,470 --> 01:25:32,960
does unite heaven and earth you know

2677
01:25:37,350 --> 01:25:34,480
that's the question and that's

2678
01:25:38,709 --> 01:25:37,360
that's and of course christians answer

2679
01:25:40,390 --> 01:25:38,719
with the incarnation that's the that's

2680
01:25:43,430 --> 01:25:40,400
the answer but iconography

2681
01:25:45,910 --> 01:25:43,440
is basically understanding the rules

2682
01:25:46,629 --> 01:25:45,920
and the language of christian art why

2683
01:25:49,910 --> 01:25:46,639
it's

2684
01:25:51,990 --> 01:25:49,920
why it resembles what it does

2685
01:25:54,790 --> 01:25:52,000
and then it's almost like an algebra and

2686
01:25:56,790 --> 01:25:54,800
so you know that the terms then you can

2687
01:25:59,189 --> 01:25:56,800
if you need to improvise an image you

2688
01:26:00,310 --> 01:25:59,199
can but to improvising that image needs

2689
01:26:03,750 --> 01:26:00,320
to be done within

2690
01:26:06,629 --> 01:26:03,760
the general frames and tenants

2691
01:26:07,990 --> 01:26:06,639
that the iconography offers you you know

2692
01:26:10,470 --> 01:26:08,000
so it's a it's a truly

2693
01:26:11,430 --> 01:26:10,480
traditional truly traditional art in

2694
01:26:13,110 --> 01:26:11,440
that sense

2695
01:26:15,189 --> 01:26:13,120
okay so you started studying iconography

2696
01:26:16,070 --> 01:26:15,199
because you were your eyes were opened

2697
01:26:17,590 --> 01:26:16,080
yeah because you started studying

2698
01:26:18,709 --> 01:26:17,600
buddhism and you realized they have an

2699
01:26:20,709 --> 01:26:18,719
interesting way of

2700
01:26:22,629 --> 01:26:20,719
seeing the world yeah well it was it was

2701
01:26:24,950 --> 01:26:22,639
a lot it wasn't buddhism it was

2702
01:26:25,750 --> 01:26:24,960
a little bit of buddhism a lot of uh

2703
01:26:28,870 --> 01:26:25,760
sufi

2704
01:26:32,870 --> 01:26:28,880
authors um i read some some early modern

2705
01:26:35,590 --> 01:26:32,880
uh kind of sufi converts and uh

2706
01:26:36,790 --> 01:26:35,600
oh sufi is a mystical islam yeah it's a

2707
01:26:39,110 --> 01:26:36,800
it's a branch of

2708
01:26:40,709 --> 01:26:39,120
of islam which is which is far more

2709
01:26:43,590 --> 01:26:40,719
mystical analogical

2710
01:26:45,030 --> 01:26:43,600
and uh it's closer some people argue

2711
01:26:47,189 --> 01:26:45,040
with me if i say this but

2712
01:26:48,390 --> 01:26:47,199
it's closer to christianity in in some

2713
01:26:50,070 --> 01:26:48,400
respects because

2714
01:26:51,750 --> 01:26:50,080
because of its emphasis on love and

2715
01:26:53,510 --> 01:26:51,760
because it's emphasis on

2716
01:26:55,189 --> 01:26:53,520
on transformational on the

2717
01:26:56,870 --> 01:26:55,199
transformation of the person all of that

2718
01:26:58,950 --> 01:26:56,880
to get you into more hot water yeah than

2719
01:27:04,149 --> 01:26:58,960
you already are do you fundamentally see

2720
01:27:07,430 --> 01:27:04,159
islam as a religion of peace

2721
01:27:08,550 --> 01:27:07,440
the i think that we need to see okay we

2722
01:27:11,590 --> 01:27:08,560
need to see islam

2723
01:27:14,709 --> 01:27:11,600
for what for what islam actually says

2724
01:27:16,229 --> 01:27:14,719
and so religion islam is a religion

2725
01:27:18,870 --> 01:27:16,239
there are two spheres in islam

2726
01:27:19,590 --> 01:27:18,880
there's the there's the the sphere of

2727
01:27:22,870 --> 01:27:19,600
peace

2728
01:27:24,229 --> 01:27:22,880
and there's the sphere of war and islam

2729
01:27:28,229 --> 01:27:24,239
is the religion of peace

2730
01:27:30,310 --> 01:27:28,239
in the sense that within islam is peace

2731
01:27:31,750 --> 01:27:30,320
and that's how that's how it's viewed in

2732
01:27:33,430 --> 01:27:31,760
the muslim world

2733
01:27:35,430 --> 01:27:33,440
that's how it's been presented and so

2734
01:27:37,110 --> 01:27:35,440
you have the outside world which is the

2735
01:27:38,790 --> 01:27:37,120
the space of war

2736
01:27:40,310 --> 01:27:38,800
and you have the inside of islam which

2737
01:27:43,750 --> 01:27:40,320
is the space of peace

2738
01:27:46,149 --> 01:27:43,760
and one of the goals of islam is to

2739
01:27:47,750 --> 01:27:46,159
to to bring peace to bring the space of

2740
01:27:50,229 --> 01:27:47,760
peace to the world

2741
01:27:50,870 --> 01:27:50,239
but that's why by becoming by becoming

2742
01:27:54,149 --> 01:27:50,880
muslim

2743
01:27:56,229 --> 01:27:54,159
or for by submitting to islam somehow

2744
01:27:57,910 --> 01:27:56,239
by becoming a demi or you know by paying

2745
01:28:00,149 --> 01:27:57,920
the the tribute

2746
01:28:02,149 --> 01:28:00,159
and that's that i mean a lot of muslims

2747
01:28:04,390 --> 01:28:02,159
don't think that today a lot of i mean

2748
01:28:05,910 --> 01:28:04,400
i would say that most muslims in the

2749
01:28:08,229 --> 01:28:05,920
west don't don't

2750
01:28:09,189 --> 01:28:08,239
don't have that approach to islam

2751
01:28:12,390 --> 01:28:09,199
anymore

2752
01:28:14,950 --> 01:28:12,400
um but traditionally that's what islam

2753
01:28:17,030 --> 01:28:14,960
that's why islam is an expansive has was

2754
01:28:20,149 --> 01:28:17,040
from the beginning an expansive

2755
01:28:21,590 --> 01:28:20,159
religion you know judaism is not

2756
01:28:24,470 --> 01:28:21,600
expansive judaism

2757
01:28:25,830 --> 01:28:24,480
is is wants to recover the holy land

2758
01:28:27,910 --> 01:28:25,840
like they just want their

2759
01:28:29,510 --> 01:28:27,920
they want to get their their their place

2760
01:28:30,790 --> 01:28:29,520
without it does that does cause trouble

2761
01:28:31,270 --> 01:28:30,800
obviously we see that it's caused

2762
01:28:33,510 --> 01:28:31,280
trouble

2763
01:28:35,189 --> 01:28:33,520
since they're back there it's a

2764
01:28:38,550 --> 01:28:35,199
difficult situation

2765
01:28:40,870 --> 01:28:38,560
but uh and christianity it's

2766
01:28:42,229 --> 01:28:40,880
it's kind of not clear you know because

2767
01:28:43,350 --> 01:28:42,239
the roman empire converted to

2768
01:28:45,669 --> 01:28:43,360
christianity

2769
01:28:46,390 --> 01:28:45,679
so then the roman empire became

2770
01:28:48,629 --> 01:28:46,400
christian

2771
01:28:50,310 --> 01:28:48,639
and so it's complicated to think it's

2772
01:28:51,590 --> 01:28:50,320
not so much that then christians went

2773
01:28:53,430 --> 01:28:51,600
out and

2774
01:28:55,350 --> 01:28:53,440
at least in the first you know thousand

2775
01:28:57,590 --> 01:28:55,360
years went out and invaded other

2776
01:28:59,510 --> 01:28:57,600
places although it probably happened uh

2777
01:29:02,390 --> 01:28:59,520
you know you get stories in the west

2778
01:29:03,830 --> 01:29:02,400
you get stories of of of uh you know

2779
01:29:05,270 --> 01:29:03,840
charlemagne converting by the sword and

2780
01:29:07,270 --> 01:29:05,280
you get those stories as well

2781
01:29:08,470 --> 01:29:07,280
but they're always kind of iffy but

2782
01:29:10,950 --> 01:29:08,480
islam was like

2783
01:29:11,910 --> 01:29:10,960
islam exploded became huge if you look

2784
01:29:14,950 --> 01:29:11,920
at a an

2785
01:29:16,149 --> 01:29:14,960
image of the map at the year 1000 you

2786
01:29:19,590 --> 01:29:16,159
know it's it's

2787
01:29:20,149 --> 01:29:19,600
it's immense and so yeah so i mean i

2788
01:29:23,110 --> 01:29:20,159
don't know

2789
01:29:24,629 --> 01:29:23,120
i think that most muslims today are not

2790
01:29:25,990 --> 01:29:24,639
especially people who come here it

2791
01:29:27,430 --> 01:29:26,000
depends from where they come from and

2792
01:29:29,430 --> 01:29:27,440
what intentions they have you know in

2793
01:29:30,870 --> 01:29:29,440
quebec here a lot of the muslims who

2794
01:29:32,310 --> 01:29:30,880
come here come from northern africa and

2795
01:29:33,590 --> 01:29:32,320
they you know they want to work they

2796
01:29:35,510 --> 01:29:33,600
want to have a good life they want to

2797
01:29:37,510 --> 01:29:35,520
have a good family they want to

2798
01:29:38,629 --> 01:29:37,520
to be left alone and do their thing and

2799
01:29:40,149 --> 01:29:38,639
uh yeah so

2800
01:29:42,470 --> 01:29:40,159
okay so let's get back to you were

2801
01:29:44,229 --> 01:29:42,480
studying studying iconography

2802
01:29:45,990 --> 01:29:44,239
and that allowed you to see the world

2803
01:29:46,629 --> 01:29:46,000
and see stories through a particular

2804
01:29:48,149 --> 01:29:46,639
lens

2805
01:29:49,510 --> 01:29:48,159
yeah i was watching you give an

2806
01:29:51,110 --> 01:29:49,520
interview i mean i was watching you have

2807
01:29:52,390 --> 01:29:51,120
a conversation about the spider-verse

2808
01:29:55,270 --> 01:29:52,400
with someone yeah

2809
01:29:56,709 --> 01:29:55,280
and that person then made a comment

2810
01:29:57,910 --> 01:29:56,719
about some other some other aspect of

2811
01:29:59,350 --> 01:29:57,920
the spider verse and then you said oh

2812
01:30:00,070 --> 01:29:59,360
and what that could mean is this this

2813
01:30:01,510 --> 01:30:00,080
this and this

2814
01:30:02,950 --> 01:30:01,520
and then the guy said oh i didn't see

2815
01:30:04,310 --> 01:30:02,960
that before and then you said oh i

2816
01:30:04,629 --> 01:30:04,320
didn't see it before until you mentioned

2817
01:30:07,430 --> 01:30:04,639
it

2818
01:30:09,750 --> 01:30:07,440
and that made me realize you that's not

2819
01:30:11,910 --> 01:30:09,760
something you thought about because

2820
01:30:13,350 --> 01:30:11,920
for a tr for a regular person a regular

2821
01:30:14,950 --> 01:30:13,360
person who's even watching this

2822
01:30:16,390 --> 01:30:14,960
they would have to sit and think okay

2823
01:30:19,510 --> 01:30:16,400
what could the spider verse mean to

2824
01:30:20,709 --> 01:30:19,520
here's what i know okay okay okay this

2825
01:30:21,669 --> 01:30:20,719
fits in here this fits in here this

2826
01:30:22,790 --> 01:30:21,679
doesn't work okay okay

2827
01:30:24,149 --> 01:30:22,800
and then it would take them maybe 20

2828
01:30:25,270 --> 01:30:24,159
minutes to come up with something that

2829
01:30:28,229 --> 01:30:25,280
you came up with in a

2830
01:30:29,110 --> 01:30:28,239
in the span of a sentence or two which

2831
01:30:30,550 --> 01:30:29,120
means you actually

2832
01:30:32,550 --> 01:30:30,560
see the world or you've thought about it

2833
01:30:33,430 --> 01:30:32,560
for so long that it's just second nature

2834
01:30:35,030 --> 01:30:33,440
to you

2835
01:30:36,629 --> 01:30:35,040
and i want to know how did that develop

2836
01:30:39,590 --> 01:30:36,639
and how do you see the world

2837
01:30:39,990 --> 01:30:39,600
so do you see people walking down the

2838
01:30:41,910 --> 01:30:40,000
street

2839
01:30:43,110 --> 01:30:41,920
differently than you used to no i mean

2840
01:30:44,310 --> 01:30:43,120
that seriously because even people who

2841
01:30:47,430 --> 01:30:44,320
study physiology

2842
01:30:49,110 --> 01:30:47,440
they can tell people's ailments

2843
01:30:50,470 --> 01:30:49,120
just by watching them walk even if they

2844
01:30:52,310 --> 01:30:50,480
look like they're normal oh you you

2845
01:30:54,229 --> 01:30:52,320
slightly tilt in this direction

2846
01:30:55,910 --> 01:30:54,239
it's almost like sherlock holmes and so

2847
01:30:57,430 --> 01:30:55,920
you see people moving

2848
01:30:59,350 --> 01:30:57,440
towards the subway and then you think

2849
01:31:01,270 --> 01:30:59,360
okay that's a that's a place of

2850
01:31:02,870 --> 01:31:01,280
communion where people don't interact

2851
01:31:04,470 --> 01:31:02,880
that's almost like what we had in the

2852
01:31:05,189 --> 01:31:04,480
12th century when this happened and this

2853
01:31:06,470 --> 01:31:05,199
happened

2854
01:31:08,229 --> 01:31:06,480
so i want to know do you see the world

2855
01:31:10,390 --> 01:31:08,239
like that no i see

2856
01:31:11,669 --> 01:31:10,400
i and how did you start to see the world

2857
01:31:15,430 --> 01:31:11,679
the way you see the world

2858
01:31:17,189 --> 01:31:15,440
um i mean i think i i see the world

2859
01:31:19,430 --> 01:31:17,199
through patterns that's for sure

2860
01:31:21,030 --> 01:31:19,440
uh okay now when you say patterns i'm

2861
01:31:22,149 --> 01:31:21,040
gonna get specific here so when you say

2862
01:31:25,430 --> 01:31:22,159
patterns

2863
01:31:27,430 --> 01:31:25,440
you mean repetitions parts

2864
01:31:29,270 --> 01:31:27,440
of life that repeat or parts of life

2865
01:31:31,590 --> 01:31:29,280
that are abstracted so for example

2866
01:31:33,350 --> 01:31:31,600
there's a pattern of talking where i

2867
01:31:34,790 --> 01:31:33,360
talk you talk i talk utah now that's a

2868
01:31:37,110 --> 01:31:34,800
pattern okay it's repeating

2869
01:31:38,550 --> 01:31:37,120
or another pattern is is you abstract

2870
01:31:39,910 --> 01:31:38,560
out from a certain set

2871
01:31:41,830 --> 01:31:39,920
so there's a pattern of what it means to

2872
01:31:44,870 --> 01:31:41,840
be human right so

2873
01:31:46,709 --> 01:31:44,880
it's i would say

2874
01:31:48,709 --> 01:31:46,719
okay so the pattern you could say the

2875
01:31:52,709 --> 01:31:48,719
pattern starts

2876
01:31:54,550 --> 01:31:52,719
with how things exist right

2877
01:31:56,830 --> 01:31:54,560
and when i say how things exist what i

2878
01:31:59,510 --> 01:31:56,840
mean is how they exist

2879
01:32:00,149 --> 01:31:59,520
phenomenologically not in terms of

2880
01:32:01,910 --> 01:32:00,159
science

2881
01:32:03,350 --> 01:32:01,920
because that's what confuses me in terms

2882
01:32:05,750 --> 01:32:03,360
of experience in terms of experience

2883
01:32:07,430 --> 01:32:05,760
how we experience things existing and

2884
01:32:08,149 --> 01:32:07,440
that's really the basis of how things

2885
01:32:11,510 --> 01:32:08,159
exist

2886
01:32:11,990 --> 01:32:11,520
no matter what we say like we we we try

2887
01:32:14,550 --> 01:32:12,000
to push

2888
01:32:16,550 --> 01:32:14,560
beyond the phenomenological but we

2889
01:32:17,750 --> 01:32:16,560
always see it through the lens so the

2890
01:32:19,030 --> 01:32:17,760
scientist even though he has all these

2891
01:32:21,270 --> 01:32:19,040
scientific categories

2892
01:32:22,629 --> 01:32:21,280
he's still in a consciousness and

2893
01:32:23,430 --> 01:32:22,639
looking at the world through that

2894
01:32:25,990 --> 01:32:23,440
consciousness

2895
01:32:26,470 --> 01:32:26,000
and or she he or she he or she yeah just

2896
01:32:29,990 --> 01:32:26,480
just

2897
01:32:32,070 --> 01:32:30,000
don't send any letters um

2898
01:32:34,149 --> 01:32:32,080
and so the the way that something for

2899
01:32:36,790 --> 01:32:34,159
exa i'll give you a perfect example so

2900
01:32:39,189 --> 01:32:36,800
the way that something exists

2901
01:32:41,189 --> 01:32:39,199
you need for something to exist to have

2902
01:32:46,310 --> 01:32:41,199
it have an identity

2903
01:32:49,990 --> 01:32:48,870
a variety say it that way you need to

2904
01:32:52,390 --> 01:32:50,000
have an identity and

2905
01:32:54,470 --> 01:32:52,400
a variety or a oneness and a

2906
01:32:55,430 --> 01:32:54,480
multipleness to it can you give me an

2907
01:32:58,790 --> 01:32:55,440
example

2908
01:33:01,030 --> 01:32:58,800
well so if i have a so i i have

2909
01:33:03,110 --> 01:33:01,040
a cup so this has an identity and it's

2910
01:33:04,870 --> 01:33:03,120
it's let's say it's identity is

2911
01:33:06,709 --> 01:33:04,880
is the cup that's part of it there has

2912
01:33:07,669 --> 01:33:06,719
it has other identities but let's use

2913
01:33:09,270 --> 01:33:07,679
that one for

2914
01:33:11,030 --> 01:33:09,280
for start so it has an identity it's a

2915
01:33:14,149 --> 01:33:11,040
cup but then it also

2916
01:33:16,390 --> 01:33:14,159
it also is not just

2917
01:33:17,910 --> 01:33:16,400
there is no such thing as a cup it's

2918
01:33:19,830 --> 01:33:17,920
actually non-binary and it's offended

2919
01:33:21,510 --> 01:33:19,840
that you defined it in terms of

2920
01:33:22,950 --> 01:33:21,520
well there's no such thing as there's no

2921
01:33:25,669 --> 01:33:22,960
pure cup

2922
01:33:26,709 --> 01:33:25,679
right not in the world right so a cup

2923
01:33:30,070 --> 01:33:26,719
has to have

2924
01:33:34,070 --> 01:33:30,080
particularity to it

2925
01:33:35,189 --> 01:33:34,080
variety it's a multiplicity

2926
01:33:37,189 --> 01:33:35,199
and then in order for it to have

2927
01:33:39,750 --> 01:33:37,199
particularity then it has to

2928
01:33:40,950 --> 01:33:39,760
embody other identities so it has a

2929
01:33:43,350 --> 01:33:40,960
color it has

2930
01:33:45,990 --> 01:33:43,360
you know it has to have a color right

2931
01:33:47,510 --> 01:33:46,000
but it there's no color in the cup

2932
01:33:49,270 --> 01:33:47,520
cup doesn't have color but it has to

2933
01:33:50,950 --> 01:33:49,280
have color so there's there's the

2934
01:33:52,790 --> 01:33:50,960
concept of cupness

2935
01:33:54,390 --> 01:33:52,800
which doesn't actually exist in the

2936
01:33:57,030 --> 01:33:54,400
world in space and time

2937
01:33:58,790 --> 01:33:57,040
but it's a concept nonetheless something

2938
01:34:01,910 --> 01:33:58,800
that makes something

2939
01:34:03,030 --> 01:34:01,920
essence it's a concept i try not to get

2940
01:34:04,149 --> 01:34:03,040
too tight up in

2941
01:34:06,390 --> 01:34:04,159
because people say okay you're being

2942
01:34:09,110 --> 01:34:06,400
platonic just trying to to see

2943
01:34:10,950 --> 01:34:09,120
how things come to to exist and so so

2944
01:34:12,149 --> 01:34:10,960
there's an aspect of it which is one

2945
01:34:14,070 --> 01:34:12,159
there's an aspect of it which is

2946
01:34:17,030 --> 01:34:14,080
multiple and everything

2947
01:34:18,390 --> 01:34:17,040
always has to to to have that for

2948
01:34:19,830 --> 01:34:18,400
anything to exist

2949
01:34:21,189 --> 01:34:19,840
it has to be one and multiple at the

2950
01:34:22,390 --> 01:34:21,199
same time because it also has to be

2951
01:34:25,030 --> 01:34:22,400
constitutive

2952
01:34:26,229 --> 01:34:25,040
constituted by parts okay so you're

2953
01:34:27,270 --> 01:34:26,239
saying the elements of this that are not

2954
01:34:29,270 --> 01:34:27,280
a cup are

2955
01:34:30,310 --> 01:34:29,280
but also for even for it to be a cup it

2956
01:34:33,590 --> 01:34:30,320
also needs to be

2957
01:34:35,510 --> 01:34:33,600
constituted with parts so it has one

2958
01:34:36,950 --> 01:34:35,520
oneness and it also has parts which are

2959
01:34:38,790 --> 01:34:36,960
multiple and the

2960
01:34:40,310 --> 01:34:38,800
cuppness of the cup holds the cup

2961
01:34:42,229 --> 01:34:40,320
together right so let's just say that

2962
01:34:44,709 --> 01:34:42,239
just have one and one in many

2963
01:34:45,350 --> 01:34:44,719
okay okay so if you have one in many

2964
01:34:48,790 --> 01:34:45,360
just that

2965
01:34:50,470 --> 01:34:48,800
yeah you already have a basic pattern

2966
01:34:51,830 --> 01:34:50,480
and then you could look at the world

2967
01:34:54,470 --> 01:34:51,840
through one in many

2968
01:34:55,750 --> 01:34:54,480
and and you can notice when things move

2969
01:34:58,229 --> 01:34:55,760
towards one

2970
01:34:59,669 --> 01:34:58,239
or when they move towards many or how

2971
01:35:01,669 --> 01:34:59,679
they move towards one

2972
01:35:03,590 --> 01:35:01,679
how they move towards many okay so then

2973
01:35:05,430 --> 01:35:03,600
let's do that in space

2974
01:35:06,950 --> 01:35:05,440
you a good way to represent it in space

2975
01:35:10,070 --> 01:35:06,960
best way to represent in space

2976
01:35:10,709 --> 01:35:10,080
center periphery so you have a wheel

2977
01:35:12,790 --> 01:35:10,719
let's say

2978
01:35:15,030 --> 01:35:12,800
you have a center the center is that

2979
01:35:17,270 --> 01:35:15,040
which around everything else turns

2980
01:35:18,629 --> 01:35:17,280
and then as you move out from the center

2981
01:35:20,390 --> 01:35:18,639
you get more

2982
01:35:22,709 --> 01:35:20,400
quantity you could say as you move

2983
01:35:25,189 --> 01:35:22,719
towards the center you get more quality

2984
01:35:26,870 --> 01:35:25,199
and so that's a basic pattern so you can

2985
01:35:28,070 --> 01:35:26,880
look at a person like that

2986
01:35:29,510 --> 01:35:28,080
that's extremely interesting you could

2987
01:35:29,910 --> 01:35:29,520
also look at the political sphere like

2988
01:35:32,310 --> 01:35:29,920
that

2989
01:35:33,350 --> 01:35:32,320
would you say the radical left is on the

2990
01:35:36,470 --> 01:35:33,360
periphery and then the

2991
01:35:40,709 --> 01:35:36,480
alt-right is in the extreme center

2992
01:35:42,709 --> 01:35:40,719
um i struggle with this alt-right thing

2993
01:35:44,229 --> 01:35:42,719
but let's talk about the rat because

2994
01:35:46,390 --> 01:35:44,239
let's talk about the radical

2995
01:35:47,669 --> 01:35:46,400
the radical left okay so the let's say

2996
01:35:49,109 --> 01:35:47,679
the left so you

2997
01:35:51,189 --> 01:35:49,119
let's say right hand left hand we can

2998
01:35:52,550 --> 01:35:51,199
use that okay so right the right hand

2999
01:35:54,229 --> 01:35:52,560
traditionally really this is

3000
01:35:56,550 --> 01:35:54,239
i'm not making this up the right hand

3001
01:35:57,830 --> 01:35:56,560
traditionally is the tendency to move

3002
01:35:59,430 --> 01:35:57,840
towards the center

3003
01:36:01,510 --> 01:35:59,440
and the left hand is the tendency to

3004
01:36:04,470 --> 01:36:01,520
move away from the center and so

3005
01:36:05,910 --> 01:36:04,480
for example christ says when he's

3006
01:36:08,709 --> 01:36:05,920
judging the world he says

3007
01:36:09,350 --> 01:36:08,719
to the sheep he says come into my

3008
01:36:11,910 --> 01:36:09,360
kingdom

3009
01:36:12,870 --> 01:36:11,920
and to the goats he says depart from me

3010
01:36:15,270 --> 01:36:12,880
i never knew you

3011
01:36:16,390 --> 01:36:15,280
okay so moving towards the center moving

3012
01:36:17,990 --> 01:36:16,400
away from the center

3013
01:36:19,750 --> 01:36:18,000
there's a rabbinical teaching that says

3014
01:36:21,030 --> 01:36:19,760
exactly that which is you know bring

3015
01:36:21,350 --> 01:36:21,040
things closer to you with your right

3016
01:36:22,790 --> 01:36:21,360
hand

3017
01:36:24,629 --> 01:36:22,800
move them away from you with your left

3018
01:36:25,590 --> 01:36:24,639
hand right so you now you can think of

3019
01:36:27,510 --> 01:36:25,600
it as a person

3020
01:36:29,430 --> 01:36:27,520
traditionally in any traditional culture

3021
01:36:31,669 --> 01:36:29,440
almost every single traditional culture

3022
01:36:33,030 --> 01:36:31,679
you eat with what hand you're right you

3023
01:36:35,109 --> 01:36:33,040
wash with what hand you're right

3024
01:36:36,790 --> 01:36:35,119
you watch with your left hand oh because

3025
01:36:39,270 --> 01:36:36,800
you're moving because you don't want to

3026
01:36:40,870 --> 01:36:39,280
eat with what you wash with you go to

3027
01:36:42,790 --> 01:36:40,880
the bathroom use your left hand

3028
01:36:44,070 --> 01:36:42,800
you eat with your right hand right so

3029
01:36:44,550 --> 01:36:44,080
you bring towards you with your right

3030
01:36:46,149 --> 01:36:44,560
hand

3031
01:36:47,910 --> 01:36:46,159
you move away from you with your left

3032
01:36:49,990 --> 01:36:47,920
hand right so you understand

3033
01:36:51,109 --> 01:36:50,000
that that's just a basic pattern of

3034
01:36:53,189 --> 01:36:51,119
being like a person

3035
01:36:55,109 --> 01:36:53,199
has a tendency towards unity and a

3036
01:36:57,590 --> 01:36:55,119
tendency towards

3037
01:36:58,149 --> 01:36:57,600
outside towards inside towards outside

3038
01:37:01,669 --> 01:36:58,159
that's

3039
01:37:04,950 --> 01:37:01,679
of reality then you can

3040
01:37:06,629 --> 01:37:04,960
you can apply that to a society society

3041
01:37:08,070 --> 01:37:06,639
has a basic identity

3042
01:37:11,350 --> 01:37:08,080
and it has ways in which you move

3043
01:37:12,950 --> 01:37:11,360
towards that identity and then it has

3044
01:37:15,109 --> 01:37:12,960
a way in which you move away from that

3045
01:37:15,590 --> 01:37:15,119
identity but you could moving away or

3046
01:37:18,390 --> 01:37:15,600
closer

3047
01:37:20,070 --> 01:37:18,400
is not moral right because some things

3048
01:37:21,350 --> 01:37:20,080
you need to move you need to to

3049
01:37:23,350 --> 01:37:21,360
move away from you and there's some

3050
01:37:25,750 --> 01:37:23,360
things also that move away for you for

3051
01:37:26,550 --> 01:37:25,760
from you for a good reason right in the

3052
01:37:28,390 --> 01:37:26,560
sense that

3053
01:37:29,910 --> 01:37:28,400
you could be extending yourself out into

3054
01:37:32,870 --> 01:37:29,920
the world as well right

3055
01:37:34,390 --> 01:37:32,880
and so and so it's not it's not the

3056
01:37:36,070 --> 01:37:34,400
patterns are not moral there's no

3057
01:37:38,629 --> 01:37:36,080
in in the pattern there's nothing good

3058
01:37:39,830 --> 01:37:38,639
or bad they can become good or bad

3059
01:37:41,350 --> 01:37:39,840
depending on how they're used

3060
01:37:43,669 --> 01:37:41,360
for what reason they're used but the

3061
01:37:45,270 --> 01:37:43,679
pattern itself is

3062
01:37:47,350 --> 01:37:45,280
it just then you can look at the world

3063
01:37:48,310 --> 01:37:47,360
and you can what i see when i look at

3064
01:37:50,709 --> 01:37:48,320
the world is

3065
01:37:51,669 --> 01:37:50,719
that's what i see i see how the pattern

3066
01:37:54,550 --> 01:37:51,679
is manifested

3067
01:37:55,590 --> 01:37:54,560
in different instances now this

3068
01:37:58,709 --> 01:37:55,600
detaching of

3069
01:38:00,550 --> 01:37:58,719
moral judgments from how close you are

3070
01:38:03,430 --> 01:38:00,560
to the center or how far you are

3071
01:38:04,550 --> 01:38:03,440
from the center is that a buddhist

3072
01:38:06,070 --> 01:38:04,560
concept or

3073
01:38:08,070 --> 01:38:06,080
does that fall in line with christianity

3074
01:38:12,070 --> 01:38:08,080
because i know christianity has an

3075
01:38:14,790 --> 01:38:12,080
has a and a

3076
01:38:15,510 --> 01:38:14,800
an emphasis an emphasis on putting moral

3077
01:38:17,910 --> 01:38:15,520
judgments on

3078
01:38:19,109 --> 01:38:17,920
almost every aspect and buddhism is the

3079
01:38:21,510 --> 01:38:19,119
opposite as far as i know

3080
01:38:22,390 --> 01:38:21,520
i could be wrong so does that does that

3081
01:38:23,430 --> 01:38:22,400
okay so you said

3082
01:38:25,510 --> 01:38:23,440
look there's the center there's the

3083
01:38:27,109 --> 01:38:25,520
moving away from the center and you can

3084
01:38:28,470 --> 01:38:27,119
move toward you can move towards center

3085
01:38:28,870 --> 01:38:28,480
you can move away from the center it's

3086
01:38:33,030 --> 01:38:28,880
not

3087
01:38:35,270 --> 01:38:33,040
and of itself moralistic to do

3088
01:38:36,390 --> 01:38:35,280
one of no one of the others they both

3089
01:38:37,510 --> 01:38:36,400
have danger and they both have

3090
01:38:39,990 --> 01:38:37,520
opportunity

3091
01:38:41,109 --> 01:38:40,000
the buddhists won't necessarily frame it

3092
01:38:43,109 --> 01:38:41,119
in the same terms but

3093
01:38:45,189 --> 01:38:43,119
he they will they'll say the passions

3094
01:38:47,590 --> 01:38:45,199
they'll say you have these passions

3095
01:38:49,350 --> 01:38:47,600
on the edges say on in yourself and

3096
01:38:50,950 --> 01:38:49,360
those passions are pulling you

3097
01:38:52,709 --> 01:38:50,960
are fragmenting you they're pulling you

3098
01:38:54,149 --> 01:38:52,719
apart and in the christian

3099
01:38:55,750 --> 01:38:54,159
the christian way of describing the

3100
01:38:57,030 --> 01:38:55,760
passions in the same way especially in

3101
01:38:59,750 --> 01:38:57,040
the orthodox tradition

3102
01:39:01,830 --> 01:38:59,760
do you have these passions these desires

3103
01:39:05,189 --> 01:39:01,840
and these desires pull you away from

3104
01:39:06,950 --> 01:39:05,199
your heart let's say and uh and you need

3105
01:39:10,149 --> 01:39:06,960
to go back to your heart you need to

3106
01:39:11,350 --> 01:39:10,159
to to to uh to let's say

3107
01:39:12,950 --> 01:39:11,360
so that's a return to the center it

3108
01:39:13,590 --> 01:39:12,960
returns and you return to the center

3109
01:39:15,750 --> 01:39:13,600
okay

3110
01:39:17,189 --> 01:39:15,760
um and do they have in christianity a

3111
01:39:18,790 --> 01:39:17,199
pushing away from the center

3112
01:39:19,910 --> 01:39:18,800
well it depends like i said for example

3113
01:39:21,109 --> 01:39:19,920
i'll give you an example of a pushing

3114
01:39:23,910 --> 01:39:21,119
away from the center which is

3115
01:39:25,430 --> 01:39:23,920
which is positive the pentecost

3116
01:39:28,149 --> 01:39:25,440
pentecost is when

3117
01:39:28,629 --> 01:39:28,159
the disciples are in the high place and

3118
01:39:30,870 --> 01:39:28,639
then

3119
01:39:32,470 --> 01:39:30,880
all of a sudden the the fire of the holy

3120
01:39:33,910 --> 01:39:32,480
spirit comes down upon them and then

3121
01:39:35,669 --> 01:39:33,920
they start to speak and then

3122
01:39:37,189 --> 01:39:35,679
everybody can hear them speak in their

3123
01:39:39,109 --> 01:39:37,199
own language

3124
01:39:40,550 --> 01:39:39,119
and so as they're speaking then

3125
01:39:41,910 --> 01:39:40,560
everybody else is hearing them

3126
01:39:44,149 --> 01:39:41,920
speak in the language that they

3127
01:39:45,990 --> 01:39:44,159
understand so that's that's a fire

3128
01:39:47,750 --> 01:39:46,000
right that's fire that's the left hand

3129
01:39:50,550 --> 01:39:47,760
that's moving away from the center

3130
01:39:51,109 --> 01:39:50,560
and so the message is is being dispersed

3131
01:39:53,270 --> 01:39:51,119
out

3132
01:39:54,790 --> 01:39:53,280
into the into the periphery because

3133
01:39:56,709 --> 01:39:54,800
those who are outside

3134
01:39:58,149 --> 01:39:56,719
hear the language hear the message in

3135
01:40:00,629 --> 01:39:58,159
their own language

3136
01:40:02,149 --> 01:40:00,639
and so that's a left-hand movement it's

3137
01:40:04,709 --> 01:40:02,159
it's it's a moving out

3138
01:40:05,750 --> 01:40:04,719
um and so so so like i said it's not

3139
01:40:08,390 --> 01:40:05,760
necessarily good

3140
01:40:09,510 --> 01:40:08,400
good or bad uh and then then there's

3141
01:40:11,590 --> 01:40:09,520
also

3142
01:40:13,109 --> 01:40:11,600
there's a bad left hand right this idea

3143
01:40:15,669 --> 01:40:13,119
of giving in to your

3144
01:40:17,109 --> 01:40:15,679
fire giving in to your desires giving in

3145
01:40:19,590 --> 01:40:17,119
to your passions is this

3146
01:40:20,390 --> 01:40:19,600
this being pulled away you know from

3147
01:40:22,550 --> 01:40:20,400
yourself

3148
01:40:24,070 --> 01:40:22,560
and and that would be represented as a

3149
01:40:27,189 --> 01:40:24,080
kind of left hand

3150
01:40:28,870 --> 01:40:27,199
uh movement you could say but there are

3151
01:40:30,470 --> 01:40:28,880
also right hand sins

3152
01:40:32,310 --> 01:40:30,480
so saint max was the confessor for

3153
01:40:35,430 --> 01:40:32,320
example talks about left hand

3154
01:40:37,270 --> 01:40:35,440
and right hand sins and he says the

3155
01:40:39,990 --> 01:40:37,280
left-hand sins are you know uh

3156
01:40:41,910 --> 01:40:40,000
gluttony prostitution all the sins of

3157
01:40:45,189 --> 01:40:41,920
the passions like you let yourself go to

3158
01:40:47,669 --> 01:40:45,199
to uh to to those types of desires

3159
01:40:48,790 --> 01:40:47,679
and the sins of the right hand are pride

3160
01:40:51,750 --> 01:40:48,800
self-sufficience right

3161
01:40:53,109 --> 01:40:51,760
so now you can see where the the the

3162
01:40:55,189 --> 01:40:53,119
moving into the center

3163
01:40:57,350 --> 01:40:55,199
can become negative in the sense of of

3164
01:40:58,950 --> 01:40:57,360
pride the sense of thinking that you're

3165
01:41:00,550 --> 01:40:58,960
that you don't need anything the sense

3166
01:41:02,070 --> 01:41:00,560
of thinking that you're self-sufficient

3167
01:41:04,070 --> 01:41:02,080
and so like i said those patterns are

3168
01:41:05,030 --> 01:41:04,080
not they're not they're not negative or

3169
01:41:07,830 --> 01:41:05,040
positive

3170
01:41:09,270 --> 01:41:07,840
um it's just in their balance well it

3171
01:41:11,669 --> 01:41:09,280
just it just depends on

3172
01:41:13,270 --> 01:41:11,679
on in the situation the situation it

3173
01:41:15,030 --> 01:41:13,280
just depends on what is

3174
01:41:16,790 --> 01:41:15,040
trying to be accomplished so entering

3175
01:41:18,709 --> 01:41:16,800
into the center in the sense of

3176
01:41:20,709 --> 01:41:18,719
removing yourself from your passions and

3177
01:41:22,310 --> 01:41:20,719
going into the center in order to

3178
01:41:23,350 --> 01:41:22,320
to look up and see what's above you okay

3179
01:41:24,790 --> 01:41:23,360
so simply just a matter of

3180
01:41:25,910 --> 01:41:24,800
appropriateness to the situation right

3181
01:41:27,830 --> 01:41:25,920
sometimes you need to be far

3182
01:41:29,350 --> 01:41:27,840
sometimes you need to be close yes okay

3183
01:41:31,109 --> 01:41:29,360
it just depends also

3184
01:41:32,870 --> 01:41:31,119
you could say a good way not necessarily

3185
01:41:34,390 --> 01:41:32,880
i was wrong when i said balance because

3186
01:41:35,830 --> 01:41:34,400
that would imply that there's a proper

3187
01:41:37,510 --> 01:41:35,840
place to occupy in almost every

3188
01:41:38,070 --> 01:41:37,520
situation whereas it's actually

3189
01:41:39,910 --> 01:41:38,080
different

3190
01:41:41,109 --> 01:41:39,920
sometimes you just need to be completely

3191
01:41:42,229 --> 01:41:41,119
right-handed sometimes you need to be

3192
01:41:43,750 --> 01:41:42,239
left-handed sometimes you need to be a

3193
01:41:47,750 --> 01:41:43,760
mixture of both so a good

3194
01:41:49,430 --> 01:41:47,760
a good way to so in terms of center and

3195
01:41:51,109 --> 01:41:49,440
and periphery for example the good way

3196
01:41:54,629 --> 01:41:51,119
to understand it is

3197
01:41:57,189 --> 01:41:54,639
uh like it's called memory

3198
01:41:59,030 --> 01:41:57,199
so if you're moving away from the center

3199
01:42:01,270 --> 01:41:59,040
if you remember the center

3200
01:42:02,870 --> 01:42:01,280
then it doesn't matter how far you go

3201
01:42:06,070 --> 01:42:02,880
right so it's like you

3202
01:42:08,149 --> 01:42:06,080
um if you remember yourself

3203
01:42:09,750 --> 01:42:08,159
if you remember god if you no matter how

3204
01:42:12,229 --> 01:42:09,760
you say it doesn't you can go

3205
01:42:13,350 --> 01:42:12,239
very far and you won't fall you could

3206
01:42:16,950 --> 01:42:13,360
say you won't be

3207
01:42:20,229 --> 01:42:16,960
taken in by whatever is pulling you

3208
01:42:21,910 --> 01:42:20,239
out you know um does that make sense

3209
01:42:23,510 --> 01:42:21,920
yeah yeah okay so now you see the world

3210
01:42:24,629 --> 01:42:23,520
like this you see the world you said you

3211
01:42:27,109 --> 01:42:24,639
started to see the world

3212
01:42:27,910 --> 01:42:27,119
primarily through the center periphery

3213
01:42:29,910 --> 01:42:27,920
dichotomy

3214
01:42:31,669 --> 01:42:29,920
that's one that's a that's an easy way

3215
01:42:32,790 --> 01:42:31,679
to understand it okay at some point it

3216
01:42:34,790 --> 01:42:32,800
transcends those

3217
01:42:36,149 --> 01:42:34,800
those categories but that's the the best

3218
01:42:39,430 --> 01:42:36,159
way to explain it i think is

3219
01:42:41,189 --> 01:42:39,440
is is using hierarchy uh like a like a

3220
01:42:42,870 --> 01:42:41,199
mountain or pyramid or

3221
01:42:44,149 --> 01:42:42,880
and periphery those are the best way to

3222
01:42:46,390 --> 01:42:44,159
explain it so now when you watch

3223
01:42:49,030 --> 01:42:46,400
something like a movie

3224
01:42:50,070 --> 01:42:49,040
how do you see the movie yeah what are

3225
01:42:53,270 --> 01:42:50,080
you looking for

3226
01:42:53,830 --> 01:42:53,280
just unconsciously hit you and you

3227
01:42:56,310 --> 01:42:53,840
realize

3228
01:42:58,070 --> 01:42:56,320
it hits me it doesn't i don't uh i

3229
01:43:01,270 --> 01:42:58,080
usually just watch a movie

3230
01:43:03,510 --> 01:43:01,280
and then i'll take a little bit of time

3231
01:43:04,870 --> 01:43:03,520
and uh and then i have insight can you

3232
01:43:05,510 --> 01:43:04,880
give me an example of your thought

3233
01:43:08,470 --> 01:43:05,520
process

3234
01:43:09,990 --> 01:43:08,480
from a a very recent movie so that it's

3235
01:43:11,030 --> 01:43:10,000
fresh in your mind so some movie that

3236
01:43:13,750 --> 01:43:11,040
you saw recently

3237
01:43:14,870 --> 01:43:13,760
that you went in thinking okay i'm just

3238
01:43:16,550 --> 01:43:14,880
gonna watch this movie

3239
01:43:18,709 --> 01:43:16,560
and then what thoughts occurred to you

3240
01:43:22,870 --> 01:43:18,719
afterwards

3241
01:43:24,790 --> 01:43:22,880
okay uh so okay what did i i just went

3242
01:43:25,430 --> 01:43:24,800
to see shazam with my kids i went to see

3243
01:43:28,870 --> 01:43:25,440
that movie

3244
01:43:33,270 --> 01:43:30,870
so the movie shazam is about a young man

3245
01:43:34,790 --> 01:43:33,280
a young boy who becomes a superhero an

3246
01:43:38,070 --> 01:43:34,800
adult superhero right

3247
01:43:40,310 --> 01:43:38,080
and uh and he and

3248
01:43:41,830 --> 01:43:40,320
the movie is for example one of the

3249
01:43:43,189 --> 01:43:41,840
images that keeps appearing in the movie

3250
01:43:44,470 --> 01:43:43,199
is an image of the carnival

3251
01:43:46,149 --> 01:43:44,480
and the carnival keeps coming back and

3252
01:43:47,350 --> 01:43:46,159
so for example like if if an image like

3253
01:43:49,109 --> 01:43:47,360
that keeps coming back

3254
01:43:50,709 --> 01:43:49,119
especially the carnival then you say

3255
01:43:53,669 --> 01:43:50,719
okay i need to pay attention

3256
01:43:55,270 --> 01:43:53,679
to this because there's something going

3257
01:43:58,070 --> 01:43:55,280
on here

3258
01:43:58,550 --> 01:43:58,080
and uh and so so a carnival for example

3259
01:44:01,750 --> 01:43:58,560
is

3260
01:44:03,109 --> 01:44:01,760
the world

3261
01:44:04,310 --> 01:44:03,119
the best way to understand it it's

3262
01:44:05,669 --> 01:44:04,320
everything is upside down right

3263
01:44:06,950 --> 01:44:05,679
everything's spinning

3264
01:44:08,709 --> 01:44:06,960
everything in a carnival is spinning all

3265
01:44:10,149 --> 01:44:08,719
the time you know the ferris wheel all

3266
01:44:13,510 --> 01:44:10,159
the rides everything's spinning

3267
01:44:16,629 --> 01:44:13,520
uh and and uh and everything is

3268
01:44:18,229 --> 01:44:16,639
is uh is is a garish

3269
01:44:20,390 --> 01:44:18,239
you know all the colors are garish

3270
01:44:22,470 --> 01:44:20,400
everything is there to to

3271
01:44:23,510 --> 01:44:22,480
titillate you in that's in that way so

3272
01:44:26,550 --> 01:44:23,520
it's all bad

3273
01:44:29,350 --> 01:44:26,560
food it's all it's all spinning it's all

3274
01:44:30,390 --> 01:44:29,360
uh laughing and pleasure in in the very

3275
01:44:35,030 --> 01:44:30,400
basis sense of

3276
01:44:38,390 --> 01:44:35,040
of having fun you know in clowns and uh

3277
01:44:41,430 --> 01:44:38,400
and impossible um impossible uh

3278
01:44:42,629 --> 01:44:41,440
precision games where you try to hit the

3279
01:44:43,030 --> 01:44:42,639
center but you're not gonna hit the

3280
01:44:46,550 --> 01:44:43,040
center

3281
01:44:47,669 --> 01:44:46,560
those precision games where you win

3282
01:44:49,750 --> 01:44:47,679
these big things like

3283
01:44:51,109 --> 01:44:49,760
it's they're they're very difficult so

3284
01:44:51,430 --> 01:44:51,119
it's like okay so this is what's going

3285
01:44:53,109 --> 01:44:51,440
on

3286
01:44:55,350 --> 01:44:53,119
and so then you think okay so the story

3287
01:44:55,669 --> 01:44:55,360
is about in this should i don't want to

3288
01:44:57,830 --> 01:44:55,679
give

3289
01:44:59,189 --> 01:44:57,840
all these spoilers but the story in uh

3290
01:45:01,510 --> 01:44:59,199
in shazam is about

3291
01:45:03,109 --> 01:45:01,520
dealing with the seven deadly sins and

3292
01:45:04,229 --> 01:45:03,119
so it's like okay so here's all of this

3293
01:45:06,629 --> 01:45:04,239
going on at the same time

3294
01:45:07,669 --> 01:45:06,639
so these seven deadly sins kind of come

3295
01:45:10,870 --> 01:45:07,679
out and possess

3296
01:45:13,910 --> 01:45:10,880
this one man you know and then

3297
01:45:15,270 --> 01:45:13,920
they they start to kind of attack the

3298
01:45:17,750 --> 01:45:15,280
world and do all this stuff

3299
01:45:18,390 --> 01:45:17,760
so okay so the seven deadly sins at a

3300
01:45:20,310 --> 01:45:18,400
carnival

3301
01:45:21,669 --> 01:45:20,320
it all kind of makes sense it's like it

3302
01:45:23,430 --> 01:45:21,679
all kind of fits together

3303
01:45:25,910 --> 01:45:23,440
it's not trying to say anything right

3304
01:45:28,149 --> 01:45:25,920
it's not it's not like there's a message

3305
01:45:29,270 --> 01:45:28,159
but the pattern is right and so when the

3306
01:45:31,430 --> 01:45:29,280
pattern is right

3307
01:45:33,030 --> 01:45:31,440
where the seven deadly sins appear at a

3308
01:45:34,950 --> 01:45:33,040
carnival

3309
01:45:36,390 --> 01:45:34,960
it's like it fits and then you when you

3310
01:45:39,430 --> 01:45:36,400
look at when you're watching it

3311
01:45:41,030 --> 01:45:39,440
you you have a kind of satisfaction

3312
01:45:43,430 --> 01:45:41,040
which is the satisfaction of the world

3313
01:45:44,790 --> 01:45:43,440
being right even if it's talking about

3314
01:45:46,550 --> 01:45:44,800
the upside down world right it's talking

3315
01:45:47,830 --> 01:45:46,560
about these monstrous seven deadly

3316
01:45:49,750 --> 01:45:47,840
passions that are coming to

3317
01:45:51,189 --> 01:45:49,760
to suck to suck up the world but it's

3318
01:45:52,870 --> 01:45:51,199
having it in a carnival

3319
01:45:54,470 --> 01:45:52,880
which is an upside-down world already

3320
01:45:55,750 --> 01:45:54,480
and so all of this is going on and so

3321
01:45:56,229 --> 01:45:55,760
it's like even though it's showing you

3322
01:46:04,790 --> 01:45:56,239
the

3323
01:46:06,629 --> 01:46:04,800
and so when when sometimes what can

3324
01:46:08,149 --> 01:46:06,639
happen is if

3325
01:46:09,750 --> 01:46:08,159
you could have it you could have a place

3326
01:46:10,550 --> 01:46:09,760
where it just is wrong where it just

3327
01:46:14,390 --> 01:46:10,560
doesn't

3328
01:46:15,669 --> 01:46:14,400
that's because

3329
01:46:16,870 --> 01:46:15,679
you're interpreting it incorrectly or

3330
01:46:17,990 --> 01:46:16,880
you feel like it's being forced on the

3331
01:46:20,149 --> 01:46:18,000
part of the filmmaking worst

3332
01:46:21,030 --> 01:46:20,159
exactly it's just being forced so

3333
01:46:23,910 --> 01:46:21,040
there's a desire

3334
01:46:24,550 --> 01:46:23,920
to to give a message and so they'll push

3335
01:46:26,870 --> 01:46:24,560
something

3336
01:46:29,189 --> 01:46:26,880
in which will which will force it but

3337
01:46:30,870 --> 01:46:29,199
the best way to force it is to

3338
01:46:32,070 --> 01:46:30,880
because it's difficult to get away from

3339
01:46:34,149 --> 01:46:32,080
these patterns because they're the

3340
01:46:36,870 --> 01:46:34,159
patterns of reality

3341
01:46:38,229 --> 01:46:36,880
all you can do is you can you can make

3342
01:46:41,750 --> 01:46:38,239
them upside down

3343
01:46:42,950 --> 01:46:41,760
you can uh twist them right so you can't

3344
01:46:44,950 --> 01:46:42,960
totally get rid of them

3345
01:46:46,390 --> 01:46:44,960
and so i think that a lot of the the

3346
01:46:48,070 --> 01:46:46,400
modern kind of propaganda

3347
01:46:50,390 --> 01:46:48,080
that's what they do is they they twist

3348
01:46:52,310 --> 01:46:50,400
them in a way they kind of just

3349
01:46:54,149 --> 01:46:52,320
toss them to it make them like the idea

3350
01:46:55,590 --> 01:46:54,159
of yes we need we can't avoid the

3351
01:46:58,070 --> 01:46:55,600
masculine feminine

3352
01:46:59,910 --> 01:46:58,080
archetypes so what we'll do is we'll put

3353
01:47:01,270 --> 01:46:59,920
a woman in the place of the masculine

3354
01:47:02,950 --> 01:47:01,280
figure and we'll put a man in the place

3355
01:47:03,590 --> 01:47:02,960
of the feminine figure and demean the

3356
01:47:07,109 --> 01:47:03,600
man

3357
01:47:08,070 --> 01:47:07,119
so it's like so we're still using the

3358
01:47:09,510 --> 01:47:08,080
same pattern

3359
01:47:11,510 --> 01:47:09,520
but we're just doing it in a way that's

3360
01:47:14,310 --> 01:47:11,520
kind of flipping it upside down or

3361
01:47:15,350 --> 01:47:14,320
playing with it in a way that is is is

3362
01:47:18,310 --> 01:47:15,360
confusing or is

3363
01:47:19,990 --> 01:47:18,320
meant to create uh disjunction you could

3364
01:47:22,229 --> 01:47:20,000
say

3365
01:47:23,189 --> 01:47:22,239
how does one know when they're reading

3366
01:47:24,870 --> 01:47:23,199
reading too much

3367
01:47:27,350 --> 01:47:24,880
into a piece of art something that

3368
01:47:29,109 --> 01:47:27,360
peterson's been criticized with for

3369
01:47:30,550 --> 01:47:29,119
on a minor basis like when you when he's

3370
01:47:33,030 --> 01:47:30,560
looking at pinocchio how do you know

3371
01:47:34,070 --> 01:47:33,040
you're not reading too much into it so

3372
01:47:35,590 --> 01:47:34,080
how does one

3373
01:47:37,510 --> 01:47:35,600
prevent themselves from reading too much

3374
01:47:38,550 --> 01:47:37,520
in is there such a thing as reading too

3375
01:47:42,550 --> 01:47:38,560
much into art

3376
01:47:44,550 --> 01:47:42,560
of course yeah for sure and i think that

3377
01:47:46,709 --> 01:47:44,560
the way that for example what i do is i

3378
01:47:49,030 --> 01:47:46,719
just point at the pattern

3379
01:47:50,870 --> 01:47:49,040
so it's not i'm not i'm not actually

3380
01:47:52,149 --> 01:47:50,880
interpreting the movie usually when i

3381
01:47:53,750 --> 01:47:52,159
interpret a movie i'm not interpreting

3382
01:47:56,950 --> 01:47:53,760
in the sense of saying

3383
01:48:00,550 --> 01:47:56,960
this aspect of the movie represents

3384
01:48:02,790 --> 01:48:00,560
uh you know i don't know represents uh

3385
01:48:03,990 --> 01:48:02,800
hitler and this aspect this this this

3386
01:48:06,070 --> 01:48:04,000
character in the movie represents

3387
01:48:07,270 --> 01:48:06,080
stalin and here this is what it's like i

3388
01:48:08,950 --> 01:48:07,280
never i would never

3389
01:48:10,950 --> 01:48:08,960
make an interpretation of a movie like

3390
01:48:13,270 --> 01:48:10,960
that you know i'll say

3391
01:48:14,310 --> 01:48:13,280
he look at the pattern right here that

3392
01:48:20,470 --> 01:48:14,320
here are the

3393
01:48:21,669 --> 01:48:20,480
right you have someone on the inside you

3394
01:48:24,790 --> 01:48:21,679
have someone on the outside

3395
01:48:28,149 --> 01:48:26,229
so we're talking about how does one know

3396
01:48:29,189 --> 01:48:28,159
when they're reading too much into art

3397
01:48:31,109 --> 01:48:29,199
and you were saying

3398
01:48:32,470 --> 01:48:31,119
well i'm not gonna substitute different

3399
01:48:33,590 --> 01:48:32,480
elements of the film and say this

3400
01:48:38,790 --> 01:48:33,600
represents

3401
01:48:40,470 --> 01:48:38,800
yeah

3402
01:48:42,229 --> 01:48:40,480
usually a movie will give you its

3403
01:48:43,990 --> 01:48:42,239
pattern it'll it'll

3404
01:48:45,669 --> 01:48:44,000
it'll lay it a little because it has to

3405
01:48:47,350 --> 01:48:45,679
right the movie has a pattern

3406
01:48:49,830 --> 01:48:47,360
in order for you to even recognize it as

3407
01:48:51,030 --> 01:48:49,840
a story especially movies that

3408
01:48:53,430 --> 01:48:51,040
especially moves that are trying to make

3409
01:48:54,470 --> 01:48:53,440
money who is that movies like little art

3410
01:48:55,750 --> 01:48:54,480
type movies where

3411
01:48:58,229 --> 01:48:55,760
the person doesn't care whether or not

3412
01:48:59,430 --> 01:48:58,239
anybody watches it usually those

3413
01:49:01,030 --> 01:48:59,440
you're hopeless like you're hopeless in

3414
01:49:02,229 --> 01:49:01,040
terms of pattern but movies that are

3415
01:49:02,870 --> 01:49:02,239
actually trying to attract a lot of

3416
01:49:06,070 --> 01:49:02,880
people

3417
01:49:07,910 --> 01:49:06,080
they have to they no matter even if the

3418
01:49:09,910 --> 01:49:07,920
person isn't conscious about it

3419
01:49:11,109 --> 01:49:09,920
in order to attract a mass amount of

3420
01:49:14,229 --> 01:49:11,119
attention they

3421
01:49:15,270 --> 01:49:14,239
they have to embody certain satisfying

3422
01:49:17,430 --> 01:49:15,280
patterns

3423
01:49:19,350 --> 01:49:17,440
that human beings have within them it's

3424
01:49:19,910 --> 01:49:19,360
necessary for because people won't go

3425
01:49:21,030 --> 01:49:19,920
see them

3426
01:49:23,109 --> 01:49:21,040
or the cynic would say it's just

3427
01:49:24,550 --> 01:49:23,119
marketed well that's not true

3428
01:49:26,470 --> 01:49:24,560
because we know movies that have been

3429
01:49:28,870 --> 01:49:26,480
massively marketed which have failed

3430
01:49:30,149 --> 01:49:28,880
right and so you know maybe they'll have

3431
01:49:32,550 --> 01:49:30,159
that first bump but then

3432
01:49:33,669 --> 01:49:32,560
it'll all go away whereas whereas if you

3433
01:49:35,510 --> 01:49:33,679
really want to attract a lot of

3434
01:49:39,189 --> 01:49:35,520
attention you need to

3435
01:49:41,750 --> 01:49:39,199
to have that pattern and so the idea is

3436
01:49:43,510 --> 01:49:41,760
the movie will usually tell you like

3437
01:49:44,870 --> 01:49:43,520
what's going on and so you just need to

3438
01:49:47,510 --> 01:49:44,880
let the movie tell you

3439
01:49:49,189 --> 01:49:47,520
what's what's happening and trying to i

3440
01:49:49,750 --> 01:49:49,199
always try not to go outside of the

3441
01:49:52,870 --> 01:49:49,760
movie

3442
01:49:54,629 --> 01:49:52,880
like at least the least that i can like

3443
01:49:56,790 --> 01:49:54,639
try not to reference anything outside

3444
01:49:59,189 --> 01:49:56,800
the actual story that's going on

3445
01:50:00,709 --> 01:49:59,199
and to just say well this character says

3446
01:50:03,270 --> 01:50:00,719
this this is what he does

3447
01:50:04,629 --> 01:50:03,280
this is this is how this is his struggle

3448
01:50:05,990 --> 01:50:04,639
he's telling you what's a struggle he's

3449
01:50:06,790 --> 01:50:06,000
going to tell you this is this is this

3450
01:50:07,990 --> 01:50:06,800
is his problem

3451
01:50:09,589 --> 01:50:08,000
he's going to tell you what the solution

3452
01:50:10,470 --> 01:50:09,599
is then all i'm going to try to do is

3453
01:50:13,109 --> 01:50:10,480
show you

3454
01:50:14,470 --> 01:50:13,119
how that is a pattern and how it would

3455
01:50:15,510 --> 01:50:14,480
how it's a pattern and then once i've

3456
01:50:17,990 --> 01:50:15,520
done that

3457
01:50:18,790 --> 01:50:18,000
then i can say okay now this pattern see

3458
01:50:21,589 --> 01:50:18,800
this pattern

3459
01:50:22,470 --> 01:50:21,599
this is the same as this other pattern

3460
01:50:27,430 --> 01:50:22,480
this other pattern

3461
01:50:28,790 --> 01:50:27,440
you know like for example the pattern of

3462
01:50:30,950 --> 01:50:28,800
resurrection you know

3463
01:50:32,870 --> 01:50:30,960
and that pattern is there everywhere

3464
01:50:34,149 --> 01:50:32,880
someone dies or almost dies and then

3465
01:50:36,310 --> 01:50:34,159
gets back up at the end

3466
01:50:37,430 --> 01:50:36,320
it's like you see it in so many movies

3467
01:50:38,709 --> 01:50:37,440
you know that's a

3468
01:50:41,109 --> 01:50:38,719
it's just there it's just there in the

3469
01:50:41,669 --> 01:50:41,119
story you know i can show you that it's

3470
01:50:43,669 --> 01:50:41,679
there

3471
01:50:45,589 --> 01:50:43,679
and then once i've shown you that it's

3472
01:50:46,149 --> 01:50:45,599
there then maybe we can start to talk

3473
01:50:48,790 --> 01:50:46,159
about

3474
01:50:51,030 --> 01:50:48,800
what it means but it's no longer now

3475
01:50:52,790 --> 01:50:51,040
about just that one movie

3476
01:50:54,629 --> 01:50:52,800
right it's about that pattern which is

3477
01:50:57,189 --> 01:50:54,639
there in several other stories

3478
01:50:57,910 --> 01:50:57,199
and now we can talk about what it what

3479
01:51:01,270 --> 01:50:57,920
it's

3480
01:51:05,430 --> 01:51:01,280
existential reality

3481
01:51:08,310 --> 01:51:05,440
um and so to me if you stay within those

3482
01:51:08,870 --> 01:51:08,320
those frames you have less of a danger

3483
01:51:13,350 --> 01:51:08,880
of

3484
01:51:13,830 --> 01:51:13,360
things that happens and it's happened to

3485
01:51:17,270 --> 01:51:13,840
me

3486
01:51:18,790 --> 01:51:17,280
and

3487
01:51:20,390 --> 01:51:18,800
you won't see a counter pattern you

3488
01:51:23,109 --> 01:51:20,400
won't see you'll see

3489
01:51:23,830 --> 01:51:23,119
you'll you'll want to see one aspect of

3490
01:51:25,430 --> 01:51:23,840
the pattern

3491
01:51:27,109 --> 01:51:25,440
too much then you won't see something

3492
01:51:29,270 --> 01:51:27,119
else that's going on so that's

3493
01:51:30,709 --> 01:51:29,280
that's totally possible can you explain

3494
01:51:32,070 --> 01:51:30,719
what you mean you mean to say that you

3495
01:51:34,070 --> 01:51:32,080
as the person who's interpreting the

3496
01:51:35,270 --> 01:51:34,080
piece of art wants to see a certain

3497
01:51:37,589 --> 01:51:35,280
pattern and so

3498
01:51:38,310 --> 01:51:37,599
it blinds you to a counter pattern yeah

3499
01:51:41,430 --> 01:51:38,320
for sure

3500
01:51:43,830 --> 01:51:41,440
because that means that in other words

3501
01:51:46,229 --> 01:51:43,840
you're selectively choosing well that's

3502
01:51:49,270 --> 01:51:46,239
what a pattern is right a pattern is

3503
01:51:51,430 --> 01:51:49,280
is is is the selectivity

3504
01:51:52,310 --> 01:51:51,440
because just like a movie just like any

3505
01:51:54,070 --> 01:51:52,320
other reality

3506
01:51:56,070 --> 01:51:54,080
has an indefinite amount of details

3507
01:51:57,350 --> 01:51:56,080
right it's a you could talk about

3508
01:51:58,550 --> 01:51:57,360
the way the leads are moving in the

3509
01:52:00,149 --> 01:51:58,560
story but you're not going to talk about

3510
01:52:00,550 --> 01:52:00,159
that because that's not what interests

3511
01:52:11,510 --> 01:52:00,560
you

3512
01:52:12,870 --> 01:52:11,520
characters

3513
01:52:14,629 --> 01:52:12,880
when you're watching a movie why aren't

3514
01:52:16,629 --> 01:52:14,639
you focusing on uh

3515
01:52:18,709 --> 01:52:16,639
on the top right pixel exactly or the

3516
01:52:20,470 --> 01:52:18,719
yeah the the way the wind is blowing

3517
01:52:21,990 --> 01:52:20,480
well some people who have autism do that

3518
01:52:22,310 --> 01:52:22,000
they don't actually look at characters

3519
01:52:24,790 --> 01:52:22,320
on

3520
01:52:25,669 --> 01:52:24,800
the eye you can watch them you can track

3521
01:52:27,750 --> 01:52:25,679
their their

3522
01:52:29,109 --> 01:52:27,760
eye fixations and they don't look so

3523
01:52:30,390 --> 01:52:29,119
right now i'm looking at you in the eye

3524
01:52:31,830 --> 01:52:30,400
and they don't watch the characters they

3525
01:52:32,229 --> 01:52:31,840
look at the light bulbs they watch how

3526
01:52:34,550 --> 01:52:32,239
this

3527
01:52:35,910 --> 01:52:34,560
swing is swinging yeah and capacity to

3528
01:52:38,149 --> 01:52:35,920
kind of bring things together

3529
01:52:39,510 --> 01:52:38,159
um and so that's so it's inevitable that

3530
01:52:46,470 --> 01:52:39,520
you will

3531
01:52:48,870 --> 01:52:46,480
but sometimes there there can be

3532
01:52:51,270 --> 01:52:48,880
other patterns that are there that you

3533
01:52:53,669 --> 01:52:51,280
that you might ignore that you might

3534
01:52:55,430 --> 01:52:53,679
you might marginalize you could say and

3535
01:52:58,470 --> 01:52:55,440
that's in a way it's kind of inevitable

3536
01:52:59,910 --> 01:52:58,480
but hopefully you tried to not to not do

3537
01:53:01,990 --> 01:52:59,920
it too much and also to be able

3538
01:53:03,270 --> 01:53:02,000
to see both and to see both sides the i

3539
01:53:05,189 --> 01:53:03,280
think the best interpretations that i've

3540
01:53:08,550 --> 01:53:05,199
done for movies have been the ones where

3541
01:53:10,310 --> 01:53:08,560
i'm able to show the two sides let's say

3542
01:53:11,990 --> 01:53:10,320
to almost sometimes imagine as if you

3543
01:53:14,470 --> 01:53:12,000
could see the movie from

3544
01:53:15,830 --> 01:53:14,480
from different aspects so let's say

3545
01:53:17,589 --> 01:53:15,840
you're an artist and you want to create

3546
01:53:18,790 --> 01:53:17,599
something that's not propagandistic that

3547
01:53:21,910 --> 01:53:18,800
doesn't

3548
01:53:23,189 --> 01:53:21,920
try to you don't try to instill your own

3549
01:53:25,510 --> 01:53:23,199
values into the art

3550
01:53:26,790 --> 01:53:25,520
because otherwise you would call that

3551
01:53:28,470 --> 01:53:26,800
jung carl jung would call that

3552
01:53:30,149 --> 01:53:28,480
propagandistic versus

3553
01:53:31,510 --> 01:53:30,159
exploration art or he called it the

3554
01:53:33,350 --> 01:53:31,520
difference between introverted art and

3555
01:53:35,109 --> 01:53:33,360
extroverted art so introverted art is

3556
01:53:36,070 --> 01:53:35,119
the art where you're trying to you have

3557
01:53:38,830 --> 01:53:36,080
your own intentions

3558
01:53:40,310 --> 01:53:38,840
and you're just using the art as a tool

3559
01:53:41,990 --> 01:53:40,320
to

3560
01:53:44,229 --> 01:53:42,000
let the world know what you think

3561
01:53:45,270 --> 01:53:44,239
politically it's usually political but

3562
01:53:46,950 --> 01:53:45,280
yeah

3563
01:53:48,149 --> 01:53:46,960
it could be whatever it could be you're

3564
01:53:49,270 --> 01:53:48,159
the main character in the film because

3565
01:53:50,709 --> 01:53:49,280
you're filming it yourself and you want

3566
01:53:53,990 --> 01:53:50,719
people to feel sorry for you

3567
01:53:55,350 --> 01:53:54,000
it could be whatever or you want you had

3568
01:53:56,790 --> 01:53:55,360
a bad experience with the father and now

3569
01:53:57,990 --> 01:53:56,800
you want to make sure that people when

3570
01:53:59,270 --> 01:53:58,000
they look at their fathers they have a

3571
01:53:59,669 --> 01:53:59,280
bad experience with their father like

3572
01:54:02,390 --> 01:53:59,679
they

3573
01:54:03,750 --> 01:54:02,400
look at fathers negatively yeah okay

3574
01:54:05,350 --> 01:54:03,760
then he said there's extroverted art

3575
01:54:06,070 --> 01:54:05,360
where it just comes through you you're a

3576
01:54:08,870 --> 01:54:06,080
conduit

3577
01:54:09,990 --> 01:54:08,880
for which these ideas flow from and you

3578
01:54:11,189 --> 01:54:10,000
don't even know what you're doing when

3579
01:54:12,470 --> 01:54:11,199
you do it

3580
01:54:13,830 --> 01:54:12,480
and until it comes together as a

3581
01:54:15,350 --> 01:54:13,840
cohesive home maybe you can look back

3582
01:54:16,950 --> 01:54:15,360
but maybe you can't even look back

3583
01:54:18,790 --> 01:54:16,960
and as much as you try to explain it you

3584
01:54:20,070 --> 01:54:18,800
realize it's deeper than my explanation

3585
01:54:21,430 --> 01:54:20,080
you come back one year from now

3586
01:54:23,189 --> 01:54:21,440
and there's more there's more to it more

3587
01:54:24,629 --> 01:54:23,199
to it more to it religious but by

3588
01:54:26,390 --> 01:54:24,639
religion is like the bible's or the

3589
01:54:28,229 --> 01:54:26,400
bible is like that

3590
01:54:29,830 --> 01:54:28,239
so you would call that extroverted art

3591
01:54:33,270 --> 01:54:29,840
what advice would you have

3592
01:54:35,750 --> 01:54:33,280
for artists who would like to

3593
01:54:36,629 --> 01:54:35,760
not fall prey to introverted art they

3594
01:54:41,990 --> 01:54:36,639
want to

3595
01:54:44,629 --> 01:54:42,000
they will stand the test of time and not

3596
01:54:45,750 --> 01:54:44,639
right which i think it's difficult it's

3597
01:54:47,430 --> 01:54:45,760
difficult

3598
01:54:49,350 --> 01:54:47,440
for me to answer that question because

3599
01:54:49,990 --> 01:54:49,360
i'm not making the kind of extroverted

3600
01:54:52,950 --> 01:54:50,000
art that

3601
01:54:55,510 --> 01:54:52,960
that young is talking about the the i

3602
01:54:59,350 --> 01:54:55,520
let's say the liturgical art that i make

3603
01:55:01,350 --> 01:54:59,360
is is a

3604
01:55:03,109 --> 01:55:01,360
is a desire to participate in a

3605
01:55:05,990 --> 01:55:03,119
community in a communal language

3606
01:55:07,830 --> 01:55:06,000
and so it's very different it's neither

3607
01:55:10,310 --> 01:55:07,840
me trying to

3608
01:55:11,589 --> 01:55:10,320
impose my vision of the world on others

3609
01:55:13,510 --> 01:55:11,599
nor is it

3610
01:55:15,350 --> 01:55:13,520
this kind of surrealist type of

3611
01:55:16,390 --> 01:55:15,360
exploratory art where you

3612
01:55:17,270 --> 01:55:16,400
like you said like you just kind of let

3613
01:55:18,470 --> 01:55:17,280
yourself go and you don't know what

3614
01:55:21,669 --> 01:55:18,480
you're doing it kind of

3615
01:55:24,790 --> 01:55:21,679
almost uh you know like uh

3616
01:55:25,990 --> 01:55:24,800
like a medium or something um it's it's

3617
01:55:28,390 --> 01:55:26,000
completely different it's

3618
01:55:29,430 --> 01:55:28,400
actually trying to participate in a

3619
01:55:33,510 --> 01:55:29,440
common language

3620
01:55:35,990 --> 01:55:33,520
and so so like i said i that that to me

3621
01:55:38,070 --> 01:55:36,000
i've chosen that as being the most

3622
01:55:39,270 --> 01:55:38,080
because the problem with

3623
01:55:40,870 --> 01:55:39,280
well i don't see anything wrong with

3624
01:55:42,470 --> 01:55:40,880
that because let's say you're a poet

3625
01:55:44,229 --> 01:55:42,480
you're using the language

3626
01:55:46,229 --> 01:55:44,239
of english or whatever language you're

3627
01:55:47,270 --> 01:55:46,239
using so you're using the the language

3628
01:55:48,870 --> 01:55:47,280
of iconography and then you're

3629
01:55:50,790 --> 01:55:48,880
constructing within that yeah so i don't

3630
01:55:52,390 --> 01:55:50,800
see that as necessarily being opposed to

3631
01:55:54,390 --> 01:55:52,400
introverted art or extraverted i mean i

3632
01:55:55,750 --> 01:55:54,400
don't see that as you trying to will

3633
01:55:57,750 --> 01:55:55,760
a certain point of view i just see it

3634
01:56:01,270 --> 01:55:57,760
it's you using a language well maybe

3635
01:56:04,070 --> 01:56:01,280
it's because maybe it's because of

3636
01:56:04,950 --> 01:56:04,080
my idea of the the of how i understand

3637
01:56:06,550 --> 01:56:04,960
what you're talking about when you talk

3638
01:56:10,470 --> 01:56:06,560
about the extroverted art which is

3639
01:56:12,149 --> 01:56:10,480
this kind of um

3640
01:56:14,070 --> 01:56:12,159
you know this kind of letting it flow

3641
01:56:15,669 --> 01:56:14,080
right almost like a surrealist like

3642
01:56:19,350 --> 01:56:15,679
other they make uh

3643
01:56:20,950 --> 01:56:19,360
um how they would they would automatic

3644
01:56:22,790 --> 01:56:20,960
writing all that kind of stuff

3645
01:56:24,709 --> 01:56:22,800
i think you can just think of it as the

3646
01:56:27,990 --> 01:56:24,719
absence of an intentional message

3647
01:56:29,030 --> 01:56:28,000
right well yeah no i i i think that in

3648
01:56:33,589 --> 01:56:29,040
terms of

3649
01:56:35,510 --> 01:56:33,599
of uh of reducing a message i would say

3650
01:56:37,830 --> 01:56:35,520
i think that understanding the

3651
01:56:41,109 --> 01:56:37,840
complexity of traditional stories

3652
01:56:44,070 --> 01:56:41,119
is probably a way to to help that in the

3653
01:56:48,790 --> 01:56:47,350
to try to always see the the old

3654
01:56:49,910 --> 01:56:48,800
testament characters are some of the

3655
01:56:51,910 --> 01:56:49,920
best for that

3656
01:56:52,950 --> 01:56:51,920
right you can read the bible the old

3657
01:56:56,070 --> 01:56:52,960
testament characters

3658
01:56:59,350 --> 01:56:56,080
and you can read them as

3659
01:57:00,870 --> 01:56:59,360
the hero and almost every single

3660
01:57:02,229 --> 01:57:00,880
character you can read them as a villain

3661
01:57:06,870 --> 01:57:02,239
almost every single one

3662
01:57:10,470 --> 01:57:08,550
there's a shady aspect to what they're

3663
01:57:12,709 --> 01:57:10,480
doing okay you can do that about

3664
01:57:13,830 --> 01:57:12,719
you can dab up every single character in

3665
01:57:14,550 --> 01:57:13,840
the old testament it's really

3666
01:57:17,030 --> 01:57:14,560
fascinating

3667
01:57:19,109 --> 01:57:17,040
by the way to do that and i think that

3668
01:57:22,470 --> 01:57:19,119
being aware of that

3669
01:57:27,109 --> 01:57:22,480
is is probably helpful

3670
01:57:30,629 --> 01:57:29,189
there are two sides to to the symbolism

3671
01:57:31,830 --> 01:57:30,639
all the time there's always

3672
01:57:33,589 --> 01:57:31,840
there's always two sides and that's

3673
01:57:34,790 --> 01:57:33,599
something that's wrong or missing in

3674
01:57:37,910 --> 01:57:34,800
modern movies like

3675
01:57:40,070 --> 01:57:37,920
like you said the one with the the

3676
01:57:42,870 --> 01:57:40,080
reversal of little mermaid

3677
01:57:44,550 --> 01:57:42,880
what was it called dierra geltorum or

3678
01:57:46,070 --> 01:57:44,560
the del toro whatever

3679
01:57:48,229 --> 01:57:46,080
the shadow of the shape of water yes the

3680
01:57:48,629 --> 01:57:48,239
shape of water that the white male was

3681
01:57:50,470 --> 01:57:48,639
just

3682
01:57:52,310 --> 01:57:50,480
he's bad there's no good to him he's

3683
01:57:52,950 --> 01:57:52,320
just bad if you label them as bad you're

3684
01:57:54,709 --> 01:57:52,960
correct

3685
01:57:56,470 --> 01:57:54,719
yeah it was no that was definitely

3686
01:57:58,149 --> 01:57:56,480
propagandistic movie that movie

3687
01:57:59,910 --> 01:57:58,159
in every in so many ways it was

3688
01:58:03,270 --> 01:57:59,920
propagandistic uh

3689
01:58:04,950 --> 01:58:03,280
and so i think that that's

3690
01:58:07,910 --> 01:58:04,960
it's like i also i also don't have a

3691
01:58:09,910 --> 01:58:07,920
problem with having uh

3692
01:58:11,350 --> 01:58:09,920
a bad character like there's nothing

3693
01:58:13,350 --> 01:58:11,360
there's nothing wrong with that

3694
01:58:14,629 --> 01:58:13,360
but you know if you look at like in lord

3695
01:58:16,390 --> 01:58:14,639
of the rings if you look at

3696
01:58:17,990 --> 01:58:16,400
a character like gollum for example i

3697
01:58:19,109 --> 01:58:18,000
mean that's a great character too

3698
01:58:21,990 --> 01:58:19,119
because

3699
01:58:24,629 --> 01:58:22,000
he's he's bad he's a bad character but

3700
01:58:27,189 --> 01:58:24,639
he's also like an extension of frodo

3701
01:58:28,310 --> 01:58:27,199
he you know you you know that he's where

3702
01:58:29,830 --> 01:58:28,320
frodo could go

3703
01:58:32,149 --> 01:58:29,840
like if he let himself go he could go

3704
01:58:33,669 --> 01:58:32,159
there so you can see gollum and frodo

3705
01:58:35,189 --> 01:58:33,679
and you can see frodo and golem a little

3706
01:58:38,149 --> 01:58:35,199
bit too and so that's a

3707
01:58:39,750 --> 01:58:38,159
powerful story because you can you you

3708
01:58:41,189 --> 01:58:39,760
have these two characters one which is

3709
01:58:41,830 --> 01:58:41,199
like a good character one which is a bad

3710
01:58:45,270 --> 01:58:41,840
character

3711
01:58:46,950 --> 01:58:45,280
but it's also not just it's not a simple

3712
01:58:48,310 --> 01:58:46,960
simple relationship there's a

3713
01:58:50,070 --> 01:58:48,320
relationship where

3714
01:58:51,830 --> 01:58:50,080
one is like the promise of the other in

3715
01:58:53,589 --> 01:58:51,840
a certain manner and so that makes it

3716
01:58:55,510 --> 01:58:53,599
far more subtle and far more

3717
01:58:57,030 --> 01:58:55,520
engaging in my opinion i was trying to

3718
01:58:59,189 --> 01:58:57,040
think of when is it okay to actually

3719
01:59:01,430 --> 01:58:59,199
just have a character which you can

3720
01:59:03,189 --> 01:59:01,440
outright categorize as bad and i wonder

3721
01:59:05,270 --> 01:59:03,199
if it's only when

3722
01:59:07,109 --> 01:59:05,280
they are a representation of satan so

3723
01:59:08,790 --> 01:59:07,119
like let's say sauron yeah

3724
01:59:10,950 --> 01:59:08,800
yeah he's like he's not even embodied

3725
01:59:13,109 --> 01:59:10,960
right he's like he's just like a

3726
01:59:14,550 --> 01:59:13,119
he's just an idea almost you know i mean

3727
01:59:16,149 --> 01:59:14,560
he obviously he's a being but

3728
01:59:18,790 --> 01:59:16,159
he's not he's not embodied in the world

3729
01:59:20,790 --> 01:59:18,800
they don't encounter sauron you know

3730
01:59:21,990 --> 01:59:20,800
he's encountering him through kind of

3731
01:59:24,950 --> 01:59:22,000
third second

3732
01:59:26,709 --> 01:59:24,960
uh second tiers or whatever um so yeah i

3733
01:59:28,070 --> 01:59:26,719
think so maybe that's a good way to

3734
01:59:30,390 --> 01:59:28,080
understand it i've actually thought

3735
01:59:30,870 --> 01:59:30,400
about sauron quite a bit sometimes about

3736
01:59:35,350 --> 01:59:30,880
if

3737
01:59:36,310 --> 01:59:35,360
too easy um

3738
01:59:38,149 --> 01:59:36,320
but like but then someone could

3739
01:59:39,270 --> 01:59:38,159
criticize the bible someone could

3740
01:59:41,510 --> 01:59:39,280
criticize the bible and say

3741
01:59:42,709 --> 01:59:41,520
jesus is too easy he's too good and the

3742
01:59:45,109 --> 01:59:42,719
satan is too bad

3743
01:59:46,390 --> 01:59:45,119
he's that's too easy yeah well but it's

3744
01:59:48,070 --> 01:59:46,400
like that's the point it's supposed to

3745
01:59:49,750 --> 01:59:48,080
be the extreme so maybe it's okay when

3746
01:59:51,030 --> 01:59:49,760
it's supposed to be the extreme well the

3747
01:59:53,430 --> 01:59:51,040
thing about that people don't underst

3748
01:59:55,669 --> 01:59:53,440
that christ does not fit that category

3749
01:59:56,950 --> 01:59:55,679
people people don't know the story of

3750
01:59:59,189 --> 01:59:56,960
christ or they

3751
02:00:00,390 --> 01:59:59,199
you read the story of christ the story

3752
02:00:03,750 --> 02:00:00,400
of christ is

3753
02:00:07,189 --> 02:00:03,760
the most the most

3754
02:00:08,229 --> 02:00:07,199
elated and disturbing story at the same

3755
02:00:09,910 --> 02:00:08,239
time

3756
02:00:11,270 --> 02:00:09,920
christ says some stuff that people don't

3757
02:00:14,470 --> 02:00:11,280
like to cite because

3758
02:00:15,270 --> 02:00:14,480
it just if you want to just make christ

3759
02:00:17,990 --> 02:00:15,280
into

3760
02:00:18,390 --> 02:00:18,000
a simple good guy story it's not that's

3761
02:00:20,709 --> 02:00:18,400
not

3762
02:00:22,790 --> 02:00:20,719
give us an example christ says i came to

3763
02:00:23,910 --> 02:00:22,800
bring fire to the world to turn brother

3764
02:00:26,950 --> 02:00:23,920
against brother

3765
02:00:29,109 --> 02:00:26,960
christ said on the cross father why did

3766
02:00:31,430 --> 02:00:29,119
how why did you abandon me christ said

3767
02:00:32,790 --> 02:00:31,440
uh you know christ said to peter bring a

3768
02:00:36,229 --> 02:00:32,800
sword

3769
02:00:43,990 --> 02:00:36,239
and cuts off the ear of a soldier

3770
02:00:48,470 --> 02:00:45,510
what i'm saying is that christ is a far

3771
02:00:50,870 --> 02:00:48,480
more complex figure than what we want to

3772
02:00:51,990 --> 02:00:50,880
believe that he is you know think of

3773
02:00:55,270 --> 02:00:52,000
christ think of

3774
02:00:56,149 --> 02:00:55,280
crazy story think of christ there as the

3775
02:00:59,350 --> 02:00:56,159
rabbi

3776
02:01:00,870 --> 02:00:59,360
who is the one who who brings who's

3777
02:01:01,189 --> 02:01:00,880
bringing the word and the truth and all

3778
02:01:03,430 --> 02:01:01,199
that

3779
02:01:05,030 --> 02:01:03,440
and imagine a washing his feet

3780
02:01:08,629 --> 02:01:05,040
with perfume

3781
02:01:11,910 --> 02:01:08,639
like think of christ as the one who

3782
02:01:13,350 --> 02:01:11,920
who who hung out with with uh you know

3783
02:01:15,669 --> 02:01:13,360
with samaritans

3784
02:01:16,950 --> 02:01:15,679
with strangers and and the marginalized

3785
02:01:18,149 --> 02:01:16,960
and all that and that's how the left

3786
02:01:19,910 --> 02:01:18,159
want to portray him for example

3787
02:01:22,149 --> 02:01:19,920
but then he also goes and hangs out with

3788
02:01:25,589 --> 02:01:22,159
a tax collector who's basically

3789
02:01:28,470 --> 02:01:25,599
a uh who's basically a a

3790
02:01:29,830 --> 02:01:28,480
a a stooge for the romans who's uh who's

3791
02:01:33,030 --> 02:01:29,840
basically a tool of the

3792
02:01:34,070 --> 02:01:33,040
of the empire to control us and so

3793
02:01:38,149 --> 02:01:34,080
christ goes

3794
02:01:40,229 --> 02:01:38,159
direction it's like you

3795
02:01:41,430 --> 02:01:40,239
you re once if you understand the types

3796
02:01:42,870 --> 02:01:41,440
that that are in

3797
02:01:44,950 --> 02:01:42,880
that are in stories and you read

3798
02:01:46,550 --> 02:01:44,960
christ's story you know i've read i've

3799
02:01:48,790 --> 02:01:46,560
read scholars complained that

3800
02:01:50,870 --> 02:01:48,800
we don't know how to how to to frame

3801
02:01:53,270 --> 02:01:50,880
christ because he's a he's a

3802
02:01:55,030 --> 02:01:53,280
he's a teacher but he's he's like a

3803
02:01:55,510 --> 02:01:55,040
rabbi figure he's also like a prophet

3804
02:01:58,229 --> 02:01:55,520
figure

3805
02:01:58,550 --> 02:01:58,239
but then he's also like the son of uh of

3806
02:02:05,189 --> 02:01:58,560
a

3807
02:02:08,470 --> 02:02:05,199
then he

3808
02:02:09,669 --> 02:02:08,480
talks to and it's like all he he he kind

3809
02:02:12,709 --> 02:02:09,679
of fills up

3810
02:02:14,790 --> 02:02:12,719
all the stories and so

3811
02:02:15,750 --> 02:02:14,800
and so that's why that's the story of

3812
02:02:18,950 --> 02:02:15,760
christ is very

3813
02:02:20,390 --> 02:02:18,960
it's it's very difficult to well getting

3814
02:02:22,550 --> 02:02:20,400
back to propagandistic

3815
02:02:23,830 --> 02:02:22,560
this is what's interesting because it's

3816
02:02:25,830 --> 02:02:23,840
not simple

3817
02:02:27,270 --> 02:02:25,840
it's not true you can't frame this

3818
02:02:28,550 --> 02:02:27,280
person as good or bad now that's

3819
02:02:30,950 --> 02:02:28,560
standard in screenwriting

3820
02:02:33,350 --> 02:02:30,960
never make your protagonist purely good

3821
02:02:34,950 --> 02:02:33,360
never make your antagonist purely bad

3822
02:02:37,750 --> 02:02:34,960
can we go a little bit beyond that as to

3823
02:02:41,589 --> 02:02:37,760
how can we stop ourselves from

3824
02:02:43,589 --> 02:02:41,599
consciously trying to push a message

3825
02:02:45,189 --> 02:02:43,599
yeah well i mean i think that i think

3826
02:02:46,550 --> 02:02:45,199
that this simple way

3827
02:02:48,870 --> 02:02:46,560
there's ways that have been told to us

3828
02:02:50,709 --> 02:02:48,880
forever i mean just aristotle told us

3829
02:02:52,550 --> 02:02:50,719
maybe give your characters a fatal flaw

3830
02:02:54,550 --> 02:02:52,560
like it's not a it's not it's not it's

3831
02:02:56,709 --> 02:02:54,560
not a mystery you know give them

3832
02:02:58,229 --> 02:02:56,719
something that could destroy them you

3833
02:02:59,669 --> 02:02:58,239
know and either it does or it doesn't

3834
02:03:02,229 --> 02:02:59,679
but make sure that it's there

3835
02:03:03,109 --> 02:03:02,239
that your even your hero has uh has a fl

3836
02:03:06,470 --> 02:03:03,119
had something that

3837
02:03:08,229 --> 02:03:06,480
could devour them um and i would say the

3838
02:03:10,310 --> 02:03:08,239
same for your enemy right make your

3839
02:03:13,910 --> 02:03:10,320
enemies convincing make them

3840
02:03:14,550 --> 02:03:13,920
make them a twisted version of something

3841
02:03:16,870 --> 02:03:14,560
true

3842
02:03:18,550 --> 02:03:16,880
right don't just make them a random bad

3843
02:03:20,709 --> 02:03:18,560
guy who you know if you make them

3844
02:03:22,870 --> 02:03:20,719
a twisted understanding of something of

3845
02:03:25,189 --> 02:03:22,880
something which it actually has value

3846
02:03:26,229 --> 02:03:25,199
then then those that makes for powerful

3847
02:03:28,550 --> 02:03:26,239
bad guys like

3848
02:03:30,070 --> 02:03:28,560
for example the the in the last avengers

3849
02:03:32,229 --> 02:03:30,080
movie the thanos character

3850
02:03:33,350 --> 02:03:32,239
that was a great character he's a great

3851
02:03:36,629 --> 02:03:33,360
evil character

3852
02:03:37,589 --> 02:03:36,639
because he actually he actually talks

3853
02:03:43,270 --> 02:03:37,599
about

3854
02:03:46,390 --> 02:03:43,280
you know all the things that even the

3855
02:03:49,669 --> 02:03:46,400
left cares about but then he pushes it

3856
02:03:51,510 --> 02:03:49,679
to such an extreme that you kind of shy

3857
02:03:52,950 --> 02:03:51,520
away from it because it's like okay

3858
02:03:55,189 --> 02:03:52,960
okay where are you going with this you

3859
02:03:57,350 --> 02:03:55,199
know versus the shape of water which is

3860
02:03:59,510 --> 02:03:57,360
like the shape of water is just trash

3861
02:04:03,510 --> 02:03:59,520
it's a trash movie

3862
02:04:07,189 --> 02:04:05,669
i mean in every single way like there's

3863
02:04:08,629 --> 02:04:07,199
so many ways in which the shape of water

3864
02:04:10,550 --> 02:04:08,639
is trash because it

3865
02:04:12,629 --> 02:04:10,560
it just it's almost like a cliche it's

3866
02:04:13,350 --> 02:04:12,639
like it's almost a cliche of of you

3867
02:04:14,870 --> 02:04:13,360
could guess

3868
02:04:16,629 --> 02:04:14,880
each character what's going to happen to

3869
02:04:18,550 --> 02:04:16,639
them you know when it when it starts

3870
02:04:20,629 --> 02:04:18,560
and uh you know the there's oh there's

3871
02:04:23,109 --> 02:04:20,639
some there's some

3872
02:04:24,310 --> 02:04:23,119
especially the bad guy that that that

3873
02:04:26,149 --> 02:04:24,320
the bad guy in the movie

3874
02:04:27,990 --> 02:04:26,159
some of the things he says that are so

3875
02:04:30,709 --> 02:04:28,000
bad in terms of

3876
02:04:32,310 --> 02:04:30,719
they're so obvious that it hurts what is

3877
02:04:33,510 --> 02:04:32,320
it there's one scene

3878
02:04:35,270 --> 02:04:33,520
when he says something he goes to the

3879
02:04:36,950 --> 02:04:35,280
bathroom and he says you can learn a lot

3880
02:04:38,870 --> 02:04:36,960
about a man whether he washes his hands

3881
02:04:40,629 --> 02:04:38,880
before after or after and i'm like oh my

3882
02:04:41,669 --> 02:04:40,639
goodness like this

3883
02:04:43,109 --> 02:04:41,679
and you don't you don't do it twice

3884
02:04:44,069 --> 02:04:43,119
because that shows weakness yeah it's

3885
02:04:46,390 --> 02:04:44,079
like you're so

3886
02:04:47,990 --> 02:04:46,400
obvious you know you're so obvious about

3887
02:04:48,709 --> 02:04:48,000
him being you know excessive purity and

3888
02:04:51,030 --> 02:04:48,719
all that stuff

3889
02:04:52,950 --> 02:04:51,040
but yeah it's this part for the course

3890
02:04:54,069 --> 02:04:52,960
by now it's non-stop you know there's

3891
02:04:56,149 --> 02:04:54,079
this movie coming out

3892
02:04:57,910 --> 02:04:56,159
just now what's it called it's like

3893
02:05:02,229 --> 02:04:57,920
these monstrous dolls and

3894
02:05:05,270 --> 02:05:03,990
i mean we've kind of swallowed this this

3895
02:05:07,030 --> 02:05:05,280
thing right now this is

3896
02:05:08,390 --> 02:05:07,040
this is this is where society is going

3897
02:05:09,910 --> 02:05:08,400
in this direction i don't know where

3898
02:05:13,350 --> 02:05:09,920
it's going to lead because it

3899
02:05:16,709 --> 02:05:13,360
can't sustain itself you can't

3900
02:05:18,229 --> 02:05:16,719
you can't have a world of exceptions do

3901
02:05:20,229 --> 02:05:18,239
you see hollywood contributing to this

3902
02:05:22,550 --> 02:05:20,239
problem oh for sure

3903
02:05:26,390 --> 02:05:22,560
since the beginning i think i think that

3904
02:05:32,229 --> 02:05:28,390
this problem of polarization or this

3905
02:05:37,669 --> 02:05:35,589
the thing is that it it falls into the

3906
02:05:38,870 --> 02:05:37,679
it's a problem of entertainment culture

3907
02:05:42,069 --> 02:05:38,880
itself

3908
02:05:43,030 --> 02:05:42,079
that's a problem we the idea that our

3909
02:05:47,430 --> 02:05:43,040
cultural

3910
02:05:49,109 --> 02:05:47,440
entertainment

3911
02:05:51,189 --> 02:05:49,119
that's a problem we don't we don't we

3912
02:05:53,109 --> 02:05:51,199
don't realize that it's it's it's

3913
02:05:54,550 --> 02:05:53,119
basic it comes back to what i talked to

3914
02:05:57,109 --> 02:05:54,560
at first when i talked about art

3915
02:05:57,750 --> 02:05:57,119
when i told you that that traditional

3916
02:06:01,030 --> 02:05:57,760
art

3917
02:06:05,589 --> 02:06:01,040
integrates in us in a culture right

3918
02:06:08,390 --> 02:06:05,599
so traditional uh storytelling

3919
02:06:10,149 --> 02:06:08,400
was part of festivals was part of of uh

3920
02:06:11,589 --> 02:06:10,159
you know gathering around the campfire

3921
02:06:14,390 --> 02:06:11,599
and telling the story of our

3922
02:06:15,510 --> 02:06:14,400
ancestors it was about you know putting

3923
02:06:17,669 --> 02:06:15,520
on masks and

3924
02:06:19,430 --> 02:06:17,679
and and wearing the costumes and playing

3925
02:06:20,950 --> 02:06:19,440
out the these characters

3926
02:06:22,950 --> 02:06:20,960
but in a manner in which we're

3927
02:06:24,390 --> 02:06:22,960
participating in it we're so we're doing

3928
02:06:26,390 --> 02:06:24,400
it on this date because it's

3929
02:06:28,470 --> 02:06:26,400
it's re it's to remember something that

3930
02:06:31,270 --> 02:06:28,480
happened you know there's a shared

3931
02:06:32,149 --> 02:06:31,280
there's a shared principle united under

3932
02:06:35,910 --> 02:06:32,159
purpose

3933
02:06:36,629 --> 02:06:35,920
that we're together all of this comes

3934
02:06:39,910 --> 02:06:36,639
together

3935
02:06:41,990 --> 02:06:39,920
and so the problem is that now

3936
02:06:43,109 --> 02:06:42,000
almost all our cultural artifacts are

3937
02:06:47,510 --> 02:06:43,119
there to

3938
02:06:49,510 --> 02:06:47,520
like a giant circus

3939
02:06:51,189 --> 02:06:49,520
our culture the last the last remaining

3940
02:06:52,069 --> 02:06:51,199
cultural artifact we have is basically a

3941
02:06:55,669 --> 02:06:52,079
circus

3942
02:06:58,790 --> 02:06:55,679
it's there to it's just there for for uh

3943
02:07:01,589 --> 02:06:58,800
to uh to keep us distracted

3944
02:07:04,390 --> 02:07:01,599
okay last question when do you see the

3945
02:07:07,910 --> 02:07:04,400
left going too far

3946
02:07:09,430 --> 02:07:07,920
i think i think the left the purpose of

3947
02:07:12,229 --> 02:07:09,440
the left is to ask

3948
02:07:13,350 --> 02:07:12,239
questions you could say is to say what

3949
02:07:15,030 --> 02:07:13,360
about this right

3950
02:07:16,790 --> 02:07:15,040
so you have some identity it doesn't

3951
02:07:18,149 --> 02:07:16,800
matter what it is and then the right

3952
02:07:20,069 --> 02:07:18,159
hand's like this

3953
02:07:21,830 --> 02:07:20,079
and then the left hand's like well yeah

3954
02:07:22,069 --> 02:07:21,840
what about this what about that like how

3955
02:07:24,069 --> 02:07:22,079
does

3956
02:07:25,270 --> 02:07:24,079
like the role of the skeptic yeah like

3957
02:07:27,270 --> 02:07:25,280
how does this fit you know and

3958
02:07:28,709 --> 02:07:27,280
and why doesn't this fit and what did

3959
02:07:29,589 --> 02:07:28,719
you think about this you know it's like

3960
02:07:31,350 --> 02:07:29,599
oh yeah you say

3961
02:07:33,750 --> 02:07:31,360
you say this but you're leaving this

3962
02:07:36,390 --> 02:07:33,760
aside right you're not considering this

3963
02:07:37,109 --> 02:07:36,400
and so in society that ends up being

3964
02:07:38,950 --> 02:07:37,119
exactly

3965
02:07:40,629 --> 02:07:38,960
kind of what we see which is this like

3966
02:07:41,990 --> 02:07:40,639
oh you forgot the exception don't forget

3967
02:07:43,430 --> 02:07:42,000
the exception

3968
02:07:45,189 --> 02:07:43,440
there's your rule but there's also

3969
02:07:47,270 --> 02:07:45,199
exception some people don't fit

3970
02:07:48,790 --> 02:07:47,280
so you have to you have to remember them

3971
02:07:51,990 --> 02:07:48,800
don't forget the exception

3972
02:07:52,390 --> 02:07:52,000
you know the problem happens when we try

3973
02:07:54,870 --> 02:07:52,400
to

3974
02:07:55,750 --> 02:07:54,880
make the exception the norm it doesn't

3975
02:07:57,990 --> 02:07:55,760
work

3976
02:07:59,189 --> 02:07:58,000
you can't have a world of exceptions it

3977
02:08:01,669 --> 02:07:59,199
just doesn't exist

3978
02:08:02,550 --> 02:08:01,679
it can't exist it just it crumbles and

3979
02:08:04,790 --> 02:08:02,560
so

3980
02:08:06,790 --> 02:08:04,800
i think that that's the problem that we

3981
02:08:10,550 --> 02:08:06,800
have now is that

3982
02:08:12,629 --> 02:08:10,560
we want we went from wanting to care for

3983
02:08:15,830 --> 02:08:12,639
marginalized identities

3984
02:08:17,830 --> 02:08:15,840
to this the the idea that somehow

3985
02:08:19,350 --> 02:08:17,840
an accumulation of marginalization will

3986
02:08:22,310 --> 02:08:19,360
make you into a

3987
02:08:23,350 --> 02:08:22,320
heroic figure that doesn't doesn't

3988
02:08:25,189 --> 02:08:23,360
doesn't do that

3989
02:08:27,270 --> 02:08:25,199
does it just because you are

3990
02:08:29,270 --> 02:08:27,280
marginalized

3991
02:08:30,709 --> 02:08:29,280
doesn't make you pure like it's like

3992
02:08:32,709 --> 02:08:30,719
it's like you're flipping it upside down

3993
02:08:37,030 --> 02:08:32,719
it's like the identitarians are saying

3994
02:08:39,910 --> 02:08:37,040
just because i am of this group

3995
02:08:40,709 --> 02:08:39,920
i'm fine just because i am you know

3996
02:08:42,709 --> 02:08:40,719
white or i'm

3997
02:08:44,229 --> 02:08:42,719
i'm a man or i'm this just because of

3998
02:08:47,270 --> 02:08:44,239
that then

3999
02:08:49,270 --> 02:08:47,280
i'm sufficient and i'm fine

4000
02:08:50,310 --> 02:08:49,280
it's like i'm pure right that's that's

4001
02:08:52,069 --> 02:08:50,320
the bad

4002
02:08:54,709 --> 02:08:52,079
but but now what we have this weird

4003
02:08:55,830 --> 02:08:54,719
crazy left is the very same thing just

4004
02:08:57,109 --> 02:08:55,840
upside down

4005
02:08:58,870 --> 02:08:57,119
there's it's like it's like a

4006
02:09:00,709 --> 02:08:58,880
competition of purity but like a

4007
02:09:02,950 --> 02:09:00,719
competition of exception

4008
02:09:03,990 --> 02:09:02,960
if you can be the most exceptional in

4009
02:09:07,589 --> 02:09:04,000
the sense that you are the most

4010
02:09:09,350 --> 02:09:07,599
marginalized then then you

4011
02:09:10,950 --> 02:09:09,360
you're playing the same purity game just

4012
02:09:12,629 --> 02:09:10,960
upside down

4013
02:09:14,390 --> 02:09:12,639
it doesn't work you need you need the

4014
02:09:17,270 --> 02:09:14,400
two like you need you need

4015
02:09:18,629 --> 02:09:17,280
you need the the statement of of

4016
02:09:20,629 --> 02:09:18,639
identity and then you need

4017
02:09:22,149 --> 02:09:20,639
things that are there on the on the

4018
02:09:23,830 --> 02:09:22,159
margin which say hey

4019
02:09:25,830 --> 02:09:23,840
hey don't don't think you've got

4020
02:09:27,189 --> 02:09:25,840
everything because i'm here to show you

4021
02:09:29,510 --> 02:09:27,199
that you haven't accounted for

4022
02:09:31,430 --> 02:09:29,520
everything right you haven't accounted

4023
02:09:33,189 --> 02:09:31,440
for everything

4024
02:09:34,550 --> 02:09:33,199
and i think that that's that's the

4025
02:09:38,709 --> 02:09:34,560
normal balance

4026
02:09:41,189 --> 02:09:38,719
you know all right man

4027
02:09:42,229 --> 02:09:41,199
thank you so much well i hope i hope it